Live minnows vs. flies - can we hold a candle???

While I agree it would be difficult to compete with a skilled bait fisherman using live minnows, especially early in the season and/or in higher flows. As I have posted, I fly fish the trout opener every year because of tradition. I usually fish for a couple of hours in the afternoon, after the crowds have thinned a bit. Each season, including this one, I caught many trout fly-fishing, amongst a lot bait fishermen drawing a blank. Perhaps this is where the qualifier of “skilled” comes in that I used in my opening sentence. I guess another reason for my success is that I’m showing the trout something different after the fish are seeing so much bait dragging in the current and hardware buzzing over their heads. And when there’s a hatch, there’s usually no better way to catch fish than fly-fishing.

Besides casting a spinning rod to help out my niece or nephew, I can’t remember the last time I spin fished. I fly-fish because I get the most satisfaction out of it, not because I want to catch the most and biggest fish….although I often do.
 
I think one of the advantages of bait is that fish come back. If you miss em the first time, they're still after it, perhaps even more determined. With streamers, you either hook em or you don't, but they're not coming back.

As with FarmerDave, I'm comparing streamers to minnows. If the fish are focused on bugs, on top or underneath, then by all means, fly fishing is more effective. This is often the case with wild trout or even stockies after a month or two, heavily pressured fish, or fish in richer streams, etc. I also think dry flies are an advantage in native brookie streams, especially in low water situations. No split shot splash, and with a floating offering and no shot, you can fish farther away without snagging. Even later in the day, when the aggressive fish are gone, using something smaller, or something different that they haven't seen, can be effective. I eventually went to egg flies because the fish stopped chasing, needed a slow drift. My advantage was that I had more colors than the guys carrying jars. Every time I changed colors I'd catch 2 or 3 right away.

Yes, I use rigs on minnows. Easy to tie up. Funny that all the hardcore minnow guys have fly tying vices.

The sliding hook takes the lips, the fixed hook goes into the back just behind the dorsal fin. The sliding hook allows you to adjust for various minnow sizes (my dad seigns his own minnows, dace work better than fatheads).
 
I overslept until 9am, and obviously had to start late. I ended up catching one less than the bait guys using a san juan worm. I don't bother trying to match the minnows they were using. I got pretty lucky, but junk flies always catch stockies.
 
pcray1231 wrote:
(my dad seigns his own minnows, dace work better than fatheads).
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LOL, I used to carry a fine mesh net and catch dace in the shallows along the stream. If there were any trout in the stream, you'd know about it in a hurry! For smallmouth, I used to pick bait by sliding my hand under the flat stones to catch stonecats and hellgrimites (actually the hellgrimites used to catch me). The only limit to the amount SMs caught was the amount of bait you were able to pick.
 
What would you eat first a nice steak or one of those rubber squeaky toys shaped like a steak in the pet store. One of the reasons I fly fish is that I fell that "hell, anyone can catch fish on bait...its what they eat". The challenge is making a fish THINK he is eating food. Its really kind of a silly question.
 
I had to get in on this one. I think there are certain circumstances when bait can out fish a fly rod even in the hands of a skilled angler: muddy and extremely cold water come to mind.

But that's it. I can pretty much guarantee that a skilled fly fisherman can stand toe-to-toe with a skilled bait fisherman and catch just as many if not more fish on a regular basis--stocked fish or wild.

I think most guys don't realize this because most guys don't have the time or the desire to put in the time it takes to get that good with a flyrod, whereas putting big numbers up with bait is a good deal easier.
 
After fishing with my centerpinning friend again, I think the real question is whether we can hold a candle to that... the thing is deadly.
 
The real thing will nearly always outfish the imitation.

A real minnow will outfish a streamer that supposedly imitates a minnow.

A live stonefly nymph will outfish a stonefly imitation.

Where flyfishing has the advantage is where the food is too small to impale on a hook.

Such as midges, BWOS, sulphurs etc.

But a live Green Drake impaled on a hook will outfish the imitation.

Mepps spinners will outfish flies too.

If you are looking for the highest fish/hour efficiency ratio, flyfishing is not the way to go.

If you're looking for enjoyment, then flyfishing ranks way up there.
 
Fishing live bait in a pod of stockers is sorta like looking for dates at a Nevada Filly ranch-not much challenge is there??
Wouldn't know,myself.
Larger trout will hit slowly fished streamers or woolly worms types readily-in water that the slush ice just disappeared from-its the ones under 2 pounds that are lethargic-something about body surface to density-sounds nuts but true.,good way to avoid little guys-but they all shut down when the water starts milking up from snow melt-you run into the weird situation of not wanting the day to get too nice-lol.
 
If you are looking for the highest fish/hour efficiency ratio, flyfishing is not the way to go.
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-Just out of curiosity, what do you consider an average day--in number of trout caught--for a bait fisher? and a flyfisher?

After fishing with my centerpinning friend again, I think the real question is whether we can hold a candle to that... the thing is deadly
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-that's the truth, and it's all about the drift they can achieve with the pin. Maybe the western states ought to hire center pinners to eradicate unwanted species in their fisheries.

What would you eat first a nice steak or one of those rubber squeaky toys shaped like a steak in the pet store.
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-Let's not forget we're talking about trout here, and hatchery ones at that. They'll eat anything from a rock to a stick to a bobber to a minnow twirling crazily in the current to a bugger floating on the surface. They really aren't that sophisticated a machine.
 
NO
 
One of the guys at camp that does keep fish actually pulled a rock out of the stomach of one on sat. It was about the size of a nickle...

But even a stockie can smell. They aren't the most educated of fish but they are still fish and are born with certain instincts. One is if it smells good to you eat it. Even stocked steelhead can find their way back to the same place they started. They don't think about things, they just do them.
 
YoughRiverGuide,

Average is stream dependent, situation dependent, etc. Thats an impossible question to answer without more info. Each method has its time and place to be most efficient. Well, not really, if efficiency were the goal we'd be throwing trot lines out. Again, enjoyment is the goal.

For example:

On Spring Creek, in mid-May, late afternoon till dark, average flow, with an evening spinner fall of sulfurs, a fly guy might average a dozen fish, and occasionally put up 20-25 type numbers, while the bait guys might average 3-5.

On Spring Creek, in December before the midges start, mid-afternoon on a warm day, water a bit high and cloudy, a reasonably skilled guy with minnows might average 20 and put up 40 on occasion, while a fly guy will eak out 5 fish or so.
 
The place where a flyfisher has an advantage is with food items that are too small to put on a hook. A Trico or BWO is too small to impale on a hook and even a #16 sulphur would be pretty tough. Or a carpenter ant, for example.

But where the item is large enough that you can put in on a hook, then the real thing is going to outfish the imitation.

A real sculpin, made out of meat, is going to outfish a "sculpin" made out of feathers and fur and lead eyes.

A real grasshopper, with legs kicking, is going to outfish a Letort hopper tied out of deer hair and feathers etc.

Spinners will also outfish flyfishing in most cases, if the person knows just a few very basic things about how to fish spinners, which can be taught and learned in about 15 minutes.
 
"A real sculpin, made out of meat, is going to outfish a "sculpin" made out of feathers and fur and lead eyes.

A real grasshopper, with legs kicking, is going to outfish a Letort hopper tied out of deer hair and feathers e"

trouble with those kinds of definitive statements is
a-with sculpins a skilled streamer fisherperson can make a streamer work the water much better than a master baiter-
b-if they are keying on hoppers present the fly better unless we are talking dapping-IMNSHO

By the way-the best sculpin imitation is a lt spruce fly -as far as appearance in the water.But feather wing streamers do have the problem of wrapping around hook.
 
I think early in the year you can't beat minnows, they're a killer, I've watch guy catch a lot of fish with them. After the hatches start then I think the advantage is ours.

My Dad fish minnows with a flyrod alot, he was deadly with them. I alway thought they were a pain, having to carry them around and putting them on those darn rigs, so I never bothered!

PaulG
 
master baiter-
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too funny!


Average is stream dependent, situation dependent, etc. Thats an impossible question to answer without more info.
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-Not really. A skilled flyrodder will go out and catch fish regardless of sun or overcast, hatches or non. I've fished area streams this spring--mostly stocked--and have never fished more than four hours at a time, and the average catch is probably right around twenty per day.

Like I said, there are times when the bait will outfish the fly for trout, but they certainly don't occur often enough to say that "fly guys don't hold a candle to bait guys."

On Spring Creek, in mid-May, late afternoon till dark, average flow, with an evening spinner fall of sulfurs, a fly guy might average a dozen fish, and occasionally put up 20-25 type numbers, while the bait guys might average 3-5.

On Spring Creek, in December before the midges start, mid-afternoon on a warm day, water a bit high and cloudy, a reasonably skilled guy with minnows might average 20 and put up 40 on occasion, while a fly guy will eak out 5 fish or so.
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-I fished Spring on Sunday down low on the stream with high, slightly stained water. We began just upriver from Bald Eagle. There were guys fishing minnows all through that part of the stream and also on Bald Eagle. Two guys were actually fishing bait at the tail of the run I started fishing--they had presumably already fished that water as well since they were working downstream. I watched them as I geared up, tied on a new leader, and picked some bugs. I never saw them hook up.

I caught seven fish on my way up to the head of that run. I fished not quite three hours and landed 17 or 18 fish. (I missed a few and lost a few more.) Pretty average for two to three hours on Spring.
 
Yough,

yeah, right now I'd guess FFing is more efficient on Spring than bait would be. Those are wild fish, that when bugs are present in good numbers, key on them. The December example is because I know Spring is a favorite among bait guys in the winter time, before the midges start in full force. I've fished it exactly twice with bait (and hundreds of times with flies). One was in December, I got 55 that day. The other was in August and I was skunked. Rarely did I ever get skunked with fly gear, but my top day with fly gear was 31 too.
 
During hatches-yes.

For larger fish-no.
 
I use both minnows on spinning rod and flyfish and I think it has alot to do with the conditions of the weather, stream, time of year. I love both and love doing both but If you want to catch big trout they eat fish.........lol
 
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