Little Lehigh - "Heritage Section"

[Bamboozle]

After much speculation and promises, Section 8 of the Little Lehigh Creek AKA - the old Heritage/now lower FFO section has been added to the Class A list.

http://m1e.net/c?49389880-jwxBDo020SnsA%40387006693-ulJbw0yAjBVBo

 

[franklin]

I'm trying to find a link to the 2013 survey.

While trying to find the survey I came across this which may be of interest.

http://files.dep.state.pa.us/Water/Drinking%20Water%20and%20Facility%20Regulation/WaterQualityPortalFiles/Stream_Packages/Fishing%20Creek/Little_Lehigh_Creek_Report.pdf

I've been doing a lot of Google, Bing, and site searches and I haven't found a list of stream surveys beyond biologist reports. Anyone have a link to stream surveys conducted by PFBC?

 

[Bamboozle]

That's interesting reading despite being six years old, thanks!

I have heard for years that Section 8 was "Class A" despite never being on the list. When I contacted the PFBC over the years, more than a few folks were surprised when I told them it wasn't listed, including WCO's

Back in 2012 I had correspondence with the PFBC which indicated it was going to reevaluated in 2013 so I guess it finally happened. The biggest problem I was told was accurately determining the origin of fish captured during surveys due to problems with the hatchery upstream.

The bottom line is there are no more excuses or blaming a lack of fish for a lousy day at the Little Lehigh. "The good old days" of tons of fish was all about hatchery escapees.

 

[franklin]

No doubt hatchery escapees have been a factor. Especially after the "great escape" during the floods in the 2004 time frame. But I have noticed a degradation of the stream bed during the years I fished it heavily, 2004 to about 2012. LouM has been a regular there during that time right up through today. I think he has observed the same.

I'll have to get back on the stream in the next week or two to check it out again.

 

[troutwilleatflies]

If you did not witness the "good old days" on the LL you have no idea how GOOD they were,it's like night vs day.
There is no doubt the degradation of the stream is the main problem,there are no where near the bugs now as then.The main problem is all the development in lower and upper Macungie twsp's,and there is no end in sight for that problem.

 

[Bamboozle]

troutwilleatflies wrote:
If you did not witness the "good old days" on the LL you have no idea how GOOD they were,it's like night vs day.

I actually only fish it a couple of times a year for an hour or two and that's only in the winter when I don't feel like wading. My catch rate has plummeted in the last 10 - 15 years but that directly coincides with repairs made to the hatchery. Back in the "good old days" all I ever caught were stockers anyway.

It was fun though...

troutwilleatflies wrote:
The main problem is all the development in lower and upper Macungie twsp's,and there is no end in sight for that problem.

Don't get me started on the Macungies and their desire to develop every square inch of their respective townships, F up every stream and clog up every road!! The commissioners should be shamed of themselves...or they have ulterior motive$.

BUT - If the fish weren't there, it wouldn't have made the Class A list. In addition, to the best of my knowledge there really wasn't any reason the PFBC needed to put it on the list because they didn't stock it anyway.

I'll still fish it in winter because it is close and chalk up any skunkings to incompetence. ;-)

 

[fishngun]

So does that mean that stocking in the section directly below or above that area will cease?

 

[Bamboozle]

fishngun wrote:
So does that mean that stocking in the section directly below or above that area will cease?

Nope.

Sections 9 & 7 (directly above & below) are still Approved Trout or Stocked Trout Water and will continue to be stocked as usual. To be honest, nothing has really changed except Section 8 being added to the Class A list because it wasn't stocked for years.

And as far as stocking above and below Class A sections, that happens all over the state and doesn't effect stocking in sections that are ATW.

 

[franklin]

Another interesting but dated report.

http://www.coldwaterheritage.org/docs/2006-grantees/little-lehigh-creek.pdf?sfvrsn=2

Still trying to find more recent stream surveys.

 

[Chaz]

franklin wrote:
I'm trying to find a link to the 2013 survey.

While trying to find the survey I came across this which may be of interest.

http://files.dep.state.pa.us/Water/Drinking%20Water%20and%20Facility%20Regulation/WaterQualityPortalFiles/Stream_Packages/Fishing%20Creek/Little_Lehigh_Creek_Report.pdf

I've been doing a lot of Google, Bing, and site searches and I haven't found a list of stream surveys beyond biologist reports. Anyone have a link to stream surveys conducted by PFBC?

What the above report reflects is that the water quality isn't good enough to bump up to EV status, i.e. that run-off is impacting the stream. All those warehouses and all the development in the watershed has reduced the macro-invertebrates below the standards for E.V. Status. Unless or until fertilizers and lawn chemicals are more tightly regulated all of the streams in more populated areas are susceptible to reduced macros, and complete collapse of the food base. I believe this to be the cause of the for fishing in the LL.

 

[franklin]

Chaz wrote:

franklin wrote:
I'm trying to find a link to the 2013 survey.

While trying to find the survey I came across this which may be of interest.

http://files.dep.state.pa.us/Water/Drinking%20Water%20and%20Facility%20Regulation/WaterQualityPortalFiles/Stream_Packages/Fishing%20Creek/Little_Lehigh_Creek_Report.pdf

I've been doing a lot of Google, Bing, and site searches and I haven't found a list of stream surveys beyond biologist reports. Anyone have a link to stream surveys conducted by PFBC?

What the above report reflects is that the water quality isn't good enough to bump up to EV status, i.e. that run-off is impacting the stream. All those warehouses and all the development in the watershed has reduced the macro-invertebrates below the standards for E.V. Status. Unless or until fertilizers and lawn chemicals are more tightly regulated all of the streams in more populated areas are susceptible to reduced macros, and complete collapse of the food base. I believe this to be the cause of the for fishing in the LL.

I agre Chaz. That's what makes the Saucon an important cause. It seems to have weathered the development better.

 

[Bamboozle]

For all who bemoan the decline of the "fishing" at the Little Lehigh in Section 8 and blame it on whatever I have to ask, when it was "better" were you catching wild fish?

I ask because my fishing there has suffered too but I blame it 100% on the lack of stocked fish in Section 8 because I WASN'T catching wild fish in the "good old days".

If you were catching large numbers of wild fish, how was that possible when there WAS a ridiculous amount of stocked fish in that section of the Little Lehigh back then and stocking over wild fish is always the cataclysm we are led to believe it is?

I also wonder that if now Section 8 meets Class A status (knowing that means there are supposed to be enough fish in there), does the fishing suck because there are not as many bugs/hatches and we are incapable of dredging up ample enough fish using other tactics/flies…

…in other words is it because WE suck?

On the other hand, is it because our old happy memories are really about catching stockers in an OVER populated stream, not the present version with a fish biomass that equals or exceeds many other wild trout sections across the state that we all rave about.

I ask for legitimate excuses in all sincerity because any time I have a rough time at a Class A stream, the last thing I blame my failures on is a lack of fish.

 

[afishinado]

Bamboozle wrote:
For all who bemoan the decline of the "fishing" at the Little Lehigh in Section 8 and blame it on whatever I have to ask, when it was "better" were you catching wild fish?

I ask because my fishing there has suffered too but I blame it 100% on the lack of stocked fish in Section 8 because I WASN'T catching wild fish in the "good old days".

If you were catching large numbers of wild fish, how was that possible when there WAS a ridiculous amount of stocked fish in that section of the Little Lehigh back then and stocking over wild fish is always the cataclysm we are led to believe it is?

I also wonder that if now Section 8 meets Class A status (knowing that means there are supposed to be enough fish in there), does the fishing suck because there are not as many bugs/hatches and we are incapable of dredging up ample enough fish using other tactics/flies…

…in other words is it because WE suck?

On the other hand, is it because our old happy memories are really about catching stockers in an OVER populated stream, not the present version with a fish biomass that equals or exceeds many other wild trout sections across the state that we all rave about.

I ask for legitimate excuses in all sincerity because any time I have a rough time at a Class A stream, the last thing I blame my failures on is a lack of fish.

Lol...the Heritage stretch was stacked with stockies back in the day...ten > twenty years ago and longer. It was rare to catch a wild trout. Now that the stockies are gone the kiddie pool is more like an old folks home.

With that said, I do believe that stream has degraded because of development resulting in unabated storm water runoff leading to siltation and decrease in macros present. Also there is a huge amount of industry drawing water from the LL which may have some effect. The temps seem a lot higher too in the summer, likely from all the aforementioned problems. I've gone there in the summer for trikes and turned around and left after taking a temp. My 2.

 

[franklin]

I've certainly noticed the stream being affected by more silt in the past 10 years. I grew up near the stream and fished it as long ago as the early 60s. While I didn't take much notice of insect types back in those days I do seem to remember more prolific hatches of larger mayflies.

I guess I'll have to get out there next weekend.

 

[pcray1231]

And a good $.2 it is.

So if I'm understanding this:

Old: Chalk full of stockers and lots of bugs and hatches.

Now: Very strong population of wild fish with reduced bugs and hatches.

So, it very well may be that a decline in water quality (and siltation, etc.) led to the collapse of the macro population. But, if that's the case, you still have to face the fact that DESPITE this decline, the wild trout population has improved immensely? And to determine why I think you have no choice but to say stockies were holding down the population before. No?

 

[Chaz]

Bamboozle wrote:
That's interesting reading despite being six years old, thanks!

I have heard for years that Section 8 was "Class A" despite never being on the list. When I contacted the PFBC over the years, more than a few folks were surprised when I told them it wasn't listed, including WCO's

Back in 2012 I had correspondence with the PFBC which indicated it was going to reevaluated in 2013 so I guess it finally happened. The biggest problem I was told was accurately determining the origin of fish captured during surveys due to problems with the hatchery upstream.

The bottom line is there are no more excuses or blaming a lack of fish for a lousy day at the Little Lehigh. "The good old days" of tons of fish was all about hatchery escapees.

In 2003 during the survey they determined that the section adjacent to the hatchery was 50% stocked fish, the rest of the section was over 90% wild fish. From the time I started fish the LL in about '89 until I'd say 2008 it was really good. Good hatches, plenty of fish. Since then it's hard to even find fish let alone catch them. I was there recently and saw 1 fish caught. I was there last summer and caught a a few, when some evening before '08 I'd catch 20 to 30 fish.
Most of those fish were wild trout. Once you move out of the Heritage section into the open water during the late spring through the fall nearly 100% of the fish I caught were wild fish. Now I'm not sure if I'd catch anything except suckers.
there were times when I'd fish the LL 3 or 4 times a week. I know the stream and the fish. The 2003 biologist report is on the PFBC site feel free to read it.

 

[salmonoid]

troutwilleatflies wrote:
If you did not witness the "good old days" on the LL you have no idea how GOOD they were,it's like night vs day.
There is no doubt the degradation of the stream is the main problem,there are no where near the bugs now as then.The main problem is all the development in lower and upper Macungie twsp's,and there is no end in sight for that problem.

Everyone seems to bemoan development (myself included), but do we live in a tent out in the woods? Or do we live in houses in developed (or semi-developed) areas? Is anyone volunteering to give up their home for the trouts' sake?

 

[Bamboozle]

I can't speak to the declined hatches (if in fact they are declined) because in my entire life of fishing there which goes back to the 1980’s, I have only fished there thrice during a hatch (Tricos twice & Sulphurs once) and I haven’t fished there during either hatch in well over 25 years.

I can't speak to siltation because to be honest, I don't notice such gradual things over a 25 year span
and I sure as heck would be lying if I said I can remember how silted or not silted it was even 10 years ago. (Yea I realize that the massive amount of development upstream could result in additional siltation but again, I'd be lying if I said I actually noticed it in section 8).

I can’t speak to reduced numbers of macro invertebrates because I am not a biologist but if a stream is “degraded” but yet has such an abundance of wild fish that it is on the Class A list, what are those wild fish living on, Power Bait & wax worms that drift downstream from Section 7?

I can speak to ME not catching many fish there but I’m not making excuses for my own incompetence.

Bottom line, I guess I am having a hard time understanding what exactly is the definition of a “declined stream”. Is it just the “declined” number of fish caught? Because somehow I have feeling if all of the same “declining” conditions were present but folks were yanking out fish after fish, nobody would be using the “D” word to describe it.

IMHO it is an evolving stream with a healthy & thriving wild trout population who survive through the good graces of the bait fishermen who lose bait while fishing upstream.

Maybe we aren’t catching them because we are using the wrong flies.

Anybody have a good Power Bait or corn pattern? ;-)

 

[franklin]

I don't know about power bait or corn patterns but I have seen some guys using what looked like pellet patterns.

Having access to surveys would help understand the changes and whether or not the stream has degraded. Also how this section compares to other sections.

 

[Bamboozle]

Well, if it wasn't Class A before and it is now, has it degraded?