Guide Tipping

To be clear my attitude toward tipping in no way reflects what I actually do when out. I just resent that employers don't seem to pay a liveable wage and that I not only play for the service but then have to pay the extra. It's just not right.
I'll admit that if it's a 1 guy operation he should get more but then why not charge more if you're that good.
Apologies to Old Lefty if I somehow offended him.
 
Since I'm known for calling a spade a spade and I also don't believe in the concept of political correctness; however, I do believe in maintaining some degree of civility, I must say that those who question the whole idea of tipping have that freedom to do so. In fact, if the feeling is so strong perhaps you may want to consider a campaign to change that part of the angling culture.

As this discussion continues I'm seeing more and more that some folks are quite ready to comment with having, at best, only mere bits of information upon which to rely. Comments including such bits as "guide negotiated a crap contract" are obviously made without any knowledge whatsoever of what the culture is. A comment like this exposes an incredible degree incorrect assumption at the very least. Too, considering what was conveyed in a previous post, the question about what a guide does in the off-season has me highly suspicious of the motive behind the question.

I still believe that it is appropriate to compare a fly fishing guide with a technician or professional. I'll readily admit that I don't have any real knowledge of what a golf caddie does so I can't compare. I do, however, have quite a bit of knowledge of what a good fly fishing guide does. I also have my own personal experience of having been in a position of employment which required a vast knowledge of regulations and the ability to apply those regulations to a caseload. It was accepted that to reach a journeyman's level of proficiency required 3 years in the position. In many respects guiding is similar.

Guiding fly fishers is not just a matter of pointing to where a fish may be holding and saying to a client "have at it." It isn't something that you just decide one day you're going to go out and do and expect to be a good guide. It takes an investment of time and effort to develop the level of skill necessary to provide a high quality experience for the client.
 
i have guided a far amount of hunts, yea i have gotten good tips and no tips...but even if a guy told me that he wasnt going to tip me it wouldnt change my game plan at all...i would still bust my butt to get them that animal....everytime i guide i dont go into the mind set of getting alot of tips, i know that im going to get paid no matter what and if the hunter feels like i have done good enuff for a tip then awesome...i also know that hunts/fishing trips arent cheap at all and maybe they cant afford to tip which is fine with me also, the key thing is its their trip that they paid there hard earn money for and they should get the best experience from it as then can
 
It takes an investment of time and effort to develop the level of skill necessary to provide a high quality experience for the client.
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which is appreciated - BUT why not just say $450 including tip ?

I charge X per day, i don't ask or expect a tip on top. i'm expected to do my job well at the rate asked.

isn't it the guides job to provide a high quality experience for $200 per person $400 a float ?

I'm kind of with Chaz here, being European i don't expect to tip for crappy service (unless i'm in France), but a tip seems built in these days for good service when good service should be the norm.

can't you make the argument that if you need a tip to do anything at a high quality then you're kind of defeating the whole 'service' ethic ?

and again, if you charge me a lower rate i'll tip you more, but charge me $400 a day, fuggeddabout it...

I understand that guides want to make a living, but on the other hand they get to live in a beautiful place, not commute, not be stuck 14 hours a day in a cube, get free fishing gear, AND they get to take people fishing six days a week for 7 months a year...

too many guides today are 'professionals' jumping from one $400 a day gig out west, down to OBX and then over to FL or the Bahamas for more of the same, and then back again.

those guys i'm not gonna tip - but the guys who live in the woods, tye flies, chop wood, hunt, plough snow and make ends meet, hell yeah they are the guys i'll hire at $150 a day and tip em well ($30).

 
OldLefty,
I'm not going to respond to your inquiry....I've pissed enough people off already today. Anyways Geebee pretty much answered my question when he talked about them jumping from state to state.

 
You've got 2 fighting groups here, which seem to be offended with each other, but agree more than they realize.

In America - hired service is priced too low, with the expectation of tips to be the primary source of pay. For instance, at a restaurant, your dinner is priced for the restaurant's cost and margin. The restaurant does not really pay the waitress. YOU pay the waitress. And you pay her as much as you think she was worth. If she was bad, you pay her less. If she was good, you pay her more. Hence she has incentive to be good. But you pay her SOMETHING either way. To not tip, or tip very low, is very bad form.

One side isn't saying not to tip a waitress in this system. They're saying the system is screwy. Good service from the waitress is an expected part of the dinner, which the restaurant should provide. The restaurant should pay the waitress all that she's worth. And of course, passing that off on to the customer in the form of higher prices is fine. At least, as a customer, it's then right there in writing what we're really expected to pay for our dinner experience. No iffiness or guessing needed.

Some countries are like that. And some others go completely the opposite direction. The barter system. Not only is it up to you what to tip the waitress, but you can negotiate the price of the meal with the restaurant as well.

It's not right vs. wrong, just a different way to do things. I prefer the set prices, no tips, myself. But in the system we are in, tipping is expected for the more personal type of services. And you just follow the rule, that's all.
 
Like it or not, tips provide an incentive for excellent service which is why they are expected but variable. A waitor that gets paid a flat rate is going to do the bare minimum for you, whereas one that believes in excellent service will make more. Do you want some bored, lazy, zombie of a guide just rowing down the river and telling you where to cast without any enthusiasm. Again, not everyone will be like this, but anyone could be on any given day, and there's nothing you can do about it.

and again, if you charge me a lower rate i'll tip you more, but charge me $400 a day, fuggeddabout it...
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If you can't afford the tip on top of your guide's price, then get a cheaper guide. The guides with the highest demand have higher prices. That's a fact of life. I think it's extremely rude to book a day and not tip, especially when the guide would have likely gotten a nice tip from almost anyone else that could have booked it before you. Also, like others have said, if they work for a shop, then they're not getting as much money as you think they are.

I understand that guides want to make a living, but on the other hand they get to live in a beautiful place, not commute, not be stuck 14 hours a day in a cube, get free fishing gear, AND they get to take people fishing six days a week for 7 months a year...
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Ok, beautiful place, yes, but you can't say the beauty of someone's location should have anything to do with their pay, especially when a lot of beautiful places have higher costs of living. Not commute, haha, yeah, sure. They're driving all over the place every day to fish wherever their clients want to go. A Montana guide is probably driving 1-2 hours on average each way. I bet there are days where a guide wishes he could sit on his *** in air conditioning for a day instead of rowing his *** of every day in the sun. Plus, if you're working 14 hours a day at least you're getting paid overtime which a guide has no way of getting. "Get to" take people fishing 6 days a week for 7 months of the year, what a joke. You think that isn't working? Dealing with people that don't know how to cast or who blame you when the fishing is slow. Rowing 8 hours a day in the sun isn't easy no matter how often you do it. And these guys who decided to make fishing their life only get to fish one day a week, which means that they have absolutely no break from what they do every other day. I'd imagine it can be frustrating.

Sorry to pick on you geebee, you're just the last comment and it reflects a lot of what I read in here. If you care about your guide as a person, then tip him. If you think his price it too high, get a cheaper guide and risk the guy not being as good. Of course I don't want to tip, but you know that it's expected, so add it to your price or you're an #censor#, plain and simple.
 
Here's a really rough breakdown of some of the expenses that could be reasonably expected by a guide.

I'll use Mike Heck for an example (sorry Mike!). He's one of the top guides here in PA, IMO. His rate for a one day destination trip to Spring Creek (one person, wade fishing) is $250. His trip package includes a very nice meal, flies, and loaner equipment. Let's say he does 20 trips per year, so I'll roughly amortize some expenses based on that.

Gas - $75.
Vehicle maintenance and upkeep - $20
Insurance - $50 (it's roughly $1000 a year)
Guide License - $5
First Aid Certification - $5
Meal - $25
Flies - $25
Leader(s), equipment loaners - $10

That's $215 in expenses alone. If he gets paid $250 for this trip, he just made a whopping $35 for the day. Now I realize it's far from an accurate estimate for his expenses, but it also doesn't include things like health insurance for himself. He'd make more money working at a McDonald's drive up window.

Think that tip isn't important?
 
Think that tip isn't important?
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yup - and i'd hire Mike ( i think his local rate is $150-$180...)

my point is, and to expand pcray's point, is that tipping someone on minimum wage a few bucks is very very different to lashing out $400 + AND tipping $50...
 
A good waitress can make 60-100+ dollars from tips in a night of serving. You're the only one giving that guide a tip for the day, and you can't throw him 40 bucks for 8 hours of his time? That $400 is for a float trip almost certainly. Drift boats are expensive. Gas is expensive. And you have a guide service taking their cut out of that as well. Again, you know that tipping is expected. If you can't afford to add a tip or just don't want to, then either fish on your own or book a cheaper guide. Don't rely on others giving generous tips so you can get away with stiffing someone.
 
Pontus wrote:
Like it or not, tips provide an incentive for excellent service which is why they are expected but variable.
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but that's the point - they shouldn't be an incentive and often they are expected at a rate that is not very variable - a $100 tip for one day ???

and i hear ya about getting a cheaper guide or DIY.

but I don't think demand sets guide rates either - more taking advantage of wealthy noobs ( which caveat emptor fair enough..) who don't know any better and probably get referred by the local orvis store anyway which pushes prices up for everyone.

and i'm not picking on Orvis; frontiers, yellowdog, fishingbreaks etc etc all do it too.

why else are people paying $1100 to chase BFT off stellwagon Bank right now ?

imagine the freaking tip for that !
 
If you think he went above and beyond to ensure you had a good trip, then why shouldn't he get $100 per day, although no one has said anything about that. I'm in college. I don't have a ton of money, and I don't want to have to tip any more than anyone else, but I've had people give me guided trips as gifts or invited me to come with them, and I pay my share of the tip. I went alone for a half day and tipped the guy 20 bucks. When I did a full day with someone else, I think we each tipped 20 as well. The point is that the guide deserves a tip. If you did an $1100 trip, no one's saying you should tip 20% of that for one day, but you should give your guide a fair amount per day that he works for you. Not to mention for a tuna trip you have much more expensive boat maitenance and way higher expenditures on gas to get to and from your fishing location. The price is dependent on the costs. A walk and wade is cheaper than a float trip is cheaper than an off shore.

And yes, the high number of "rich noobs" is an example of demand influencing the price. A good guide is going to be booked 6 days a week for most/all of prime time. As long as the demand is high enough, he can charge whatever price he wants as long as he's sufficiently filling his calendar. I don't know why you think you should have to pay any less just because you're better at fly fishing than some guy and his son who want to learn.
 
I helped a waterfowl guide for a few seasons and it was a real eye opener for me to see how much work and money was put in for a good hunt. Just scouting itself was very time consuming and gas for the boats and trucks really cuts into the profit margins.
 
I helped a waterfowl guide for a few seasons and it was a real eye opener for me to see how much work and money was put in for a good hunt. Just scouting itself was very time consuming and gas for the boats and trucks really cuts into the profit margins.
 
$50 bucks, all your remaining beer and a big fattie. That will hold him over for a meal cigarettes and gas for tomorrows trip, to do it all over again, all season long.
 
Only ever hired one guide (out of state). We each tipped him $50. He put us on good fish and provided a great time, so it was worth it and we were happy. I also learned a few things.
 
Well I was a damn good technician for over 20 years, I never asked for nor did I receive any tips. In fact the terms of engagement stated No gifts may be accepted.
My objection to tips has always been, why should I have to pay extra for good service, good service is expected. These days with the internet being what it is, a guide that didn't give good service wouldn't be around very long. that's the last I'llsay about it.
 
I have recently had my one and only guide experience. They are a forum member and was more than pleased with thier service, knowledge, steam side manner, teaching ability, Etc. I paid $200 for the outing, and tipped $40. I actually wish I had more disposable funds to tip him because the information I gained was invaluable. I do believe that $40 was an acceptable tip but probably on the low end of fair. I hope to hire a steelhead guide and go on a guided spring outing and will likely tip at around the same percentage.
 
Yeah, from what I've seen, guide rates here are very little over cost. i.e. they're take-home money is tips. These guys aren't making great money on this.

Again, I don't like that system. I'd be ok with a bit of a tip as an incentive. But if 15% is the low end, drop dead expectation, then why in the world isn't that 15% just included in the price? Then no tip is required for average service. For good service, throw 5 or 10%.

In restaurants, we already do that with large groups. That should be the standard for ALL groups, and in other services, like guiding, as well.

But, even if it doesn't make sense to me, the system is what it is. I understand that the guide makes little money without tip. I understand that an absolute minimum of 15% is just expected. I don't dislike guides, they're just pricing it the way everyone else does, else they'd look overpriced. And I'm not an ******, so I do as I should, and tip.
 
Here's food for thought and I'll use a Delaware River guide as an example since I helped him get squared away when he started...

Drift boat $4500-8000
PA guide license
NY guide license
CPR certified
National park permit
Liability insurance
Food / drinks / snacks for clients
Tippet, leaders and flies that he stayed up half the night tying

If the guide is working for an outfitter that charges $400, the guide takes home $275-300. Subtract gas, subtract $35-40 for shuttle service. You then have to consider the pay isn't taxed but reported by the outfitter so there goes around 20% for taxes.

To sum it up, the guide's is a few grand in the hole before the season even starts. Outfitter charges $400, guide get $300. Subtract $35 for shuttle, subtract $30 for food / supplies and finally subtract $60 for taxes. That leaves $175.

If the guide shares history of the area, explains techniques, helps you with casting, teaches you how to identify different insects, helps you understand how to identify holding water, provides 2 dozen flies that you snap off from bad casting, provides tippet, teaches you new knots, rows you down the river while positioning the boat to make sure you have success, tells stories, has a great personality and makes the trip a ton of fun and considering that your biggest fish ever was 16" until he put you on a 22" beauty. He had to talk you through the battle so you didn't lose the biggest trout of your life and took photos of you holding it so you can always remember that day.

When a guy goes above and beyond to make your trio one you will always remember....you should tip. If you're cutting things that tight, maybe you should hold off on getting a guide ununtil you've got a few extra $$ to play with. That's one of the reasons I've never hired one...broke azz. :-D
 
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