Fall, fishing or hunting?

[Stagger_Lee]

boychick wrote:

I don't hunt so I'll be fishing. Please don't shoot at the guys in the water

Just wear orange ... there is a fox in these parts that fancies himself orange hats during hunten season

 

[boychick]

Good advice... I need to buy some orange this year. I was on Spring Creek last year and heard gun shots up the hill, made me a bit nervous.

 

[Pontus]

Pat,

I understand the theory behind having to keep the fish you catch, but it definitely seems a little strange to me unless you already have serious overpopulation. I don't think releasing a fish is similar to shooting a deer in the leg due to the differences in the likelyhood of the animal returning to 100% condition.

I agree with you about the special regs, and I should have clarified that I was talking about special regs decreasing the numbers of fish, not affecting the fishing experience as a whole. And you'll see I mentioned overpopulation and stunted growth in my post. I think the Gunpowder would benefit from some controlled harvesting to eliminate some competition and grow some bigger fish.

What you say about the hunting season makes sense, but I always thought the point of hunting in the fall and early winter was that a lot of animals die from starvation, etc in the winter, and that hunting at those times was the most humane way to do things. With no local predators for deer though, I think it's better to kill them and eat them than let them feed the buzzards on the side of the road.

I think you're just trying to play devil's advocate, but I do think there is a reason why we do things the way we do, even if the implementation isn't completely perfect.

 

[pcray1231]

I was playing devils advocate. However, that is exactly why hunting season, rifle doe anyway, is done shortly after the rut. While we sometimes do have some winter kill from starvation, it's really not all that prominent in PA. More of the winter kill is actually predation.

The does are pregnant and last year's young have typically moved on, hence from a population perspective, 3 deer with 1 shot without orphaning fawns. Deer is a little unique in that management is typically about intentionally reducing the population well below the biologic carrying capacity (at least below the short term carrying capacity of our modified forests). There are a lot of interested parties which advocate for lower deer pops. Farmers, timber, auto insurance, homeowners, etc.

I do consider fishing a bloodsport. In America, our view of conservation is generally not concerned about individual animals and their plight, but more about populations. I'm a product of this and do take the majority view here. But also recognize that not everyone takes that view, and it is not the majority view in many other places.

 

[the_last_waltz]

Bowhunt the first weekend while they are still doing the summer eating habits, corner of field stuff. Then they get all weird, and go nocturnal and move around funny all october, so while that is happening i hit the small game and do some fishing while the fish are putting the feedbag on before winter, then hit the treestand hard for the rut, then wait until after christmas and hit the small game again with the rabbit dog.

At least in a perfect world that is how it goes

 

[perrycountypappy]

I try to get out fishing as well as for waterfowl in the fall. I have hunted waterfowl for so many years I can't not go and fishing is the same way for me. So the hard part is working each into the time that I have. And Sundays need to be spent sometimes getting some adjustments done for the ducks and geese. But I have had waterfowl seasons where the birds were just not moving as they usually did that time of year so I hit the streams. The feathers are hard to beat too.

 

[Mountainbrookie]

pcray1231 wrote:
I was playing devils advocate. However, that is exactly why hunting season, rifle doe anyway, is done shortly after the rut. While we sometimes do have some winter kill from starvation, it's really not all that prominent in PA. More of the winter kill is actually predation.

You may want to recheck the hunting regulations as that hasn't been the case for quite some time. Deer management today is all about balancing with the habitat and letting decimated habitat recover. There are ample opportunities to hunt antlerless deer with a gun or archery equipment prior to the rut.

Don't take this the wrong way but it seems that a lot of your opinions on hunting seasons and such are based more on hearsay than facts.

 

[pcray1231]

On a similar note to the whole morals of C&R thing, I think tranquilizer deer hunting would be awesome.

Can still have our normal doe season for the meat and population control.

But for most of the year, you could let hunters "release" their deer unharmed. Stick a dart in it, go up and take your hold and grin pics, walk away. No dragging and mess. You don't have to quit hunting just cause you got one. Season can be extended to cover most of the year, which IMO is one of the reasons I like fishing more than hunting.

 

[RyanR]

Hunting is a blood sport, at its core it's the ethical pursuit and taking of a game animal, why try to make it something it isn't? Besides there's a whole host of potential negatives involved with shooting tranquilizer darts into deer all season. For starters, let's look at the "ethics" of several hunters possibly darting the same buck numerous times in a season? These negatives far outweight any half-baked reasoning for trying to make hunting not like hunting.

As for the original topic. I'm a hunter as well as a flyfisher and it's really hard some days in the fall to decide whether to bowhunt or flyfish. I try to find time to do both but I also love to birdhunt and now that I have my drahthaar I think more of my hunting time will be spent pursuing upland & small game with my dog in the years to come. Plus we're getting into waterfowling now too. Luckily for me, I have a ladder stand up in the back of the property to make it easy for me to get some bowhunting in. Walk right out the back door and to my treestand!

 

[JackM]

RyanR wrote:
For starters, let's look at the "ethics" of several hunters possibly darting the same buck numerous times in a season?

I say, allow C & R Hunting for bucks only. Then require the "bagger" to spray paint the antlers candycane pattern and prohibit shooting a candycane striped buck. Thus avoiding the double-season anesthetizing of any deer.

 

[pcray1231]

Mountain,

Rifle doe season is the primary method of population control. I do realize, that anymore, it's total number of anterless tags. And yes, hunters can use those tags in archery or muzzleloader seasons. Nonetheless, the vast majority of does are harvested in the anterless rifle season, and it's timing was designed to be after the rut, ensuring that essentially all does are pregnant for maximum effect. Buck hunting is not used at all for overall population control, but rather, for maximizing sport.

Agree that it is about balancing with habitat. Don't think I implied otherwise, but if that's what you got, then it was a misunderstanding. Again, deer populations are below their short-term carrying capacity. With no hunting, populations would explode. Yeah, winter kill would also increase, but even at the low points pops would be much higher than they are now.

I specified short term carrying capacity for a reason, and also stated "of our modified forests". It's a good thing that they are held that low, as allowing them to expand would indeed hurt the long term habitat, for deer and other animals alike. We could debate optimum balance points, but I think everyone is in agreement that we shouldn't let it go crazy, as it would without hunting.

I was merely pointing out that it was different than, for instance, trout. With trout, the goal is the largest population you can get. With deer, that is not the goal.

 

[RyanR]

Mountainbrookie wrote: To those who would look down on hunting because it's a blood sport and argue that fishing isn't the same (it is) keep feeding the ammunition to PETA. They'll be coming after you next for the reasons I stated above.

Right on Mountainbrookie. It's for this reason, and I have no problem stating here, that I have very little use and whole lot of disdain for those anglers that don't want to embrace their hunting brethren. You don't have to do it yourself but please don't think we're not in the same fight to preserve our hunting & fishing access and rights against the antis.

 

[Mountainbrookie]

pcray1231 wrote:
Mountain,

Nonetheless, the vast majority of does are harvested in the anterless rifle season, and it's timing was designed to be after the rut, ensuring that essentially all does are pregnant for maximum effect.

It doesn't matter if a doe is killed in September or December, it will have the same effect. There is no maximum effect by killing a doe in December. A dead deer is a dead deer. A doe killed in September won't have any fawns the next year, the same as a doe killed in December. Your belief that it is somehow the goal to get does bred before they are killed makes no sense and is something I'm sure PETA would love to run with.

One of the reasons for the early doe seasons, which just started in the last decade, is to not only help control or reduce the population but to also condense the rut. Having more does bred in a shorter period of time benefits fawn recruitment the following spring by overloading predators of fawns. They can't keep up.

Your comments about a dead doe equals three dead deer on average (which is not the case), insurance companies, timber companies, ect. influencing deer management. Well, it sounds like the rhetoric spouted by the USP, a group that is trying it's darnedest to undo the current deer management plan.

There are plenty of places to debate the 'deer wars' on the internet so I'll end it with that. This is a fly fishing forum after all.

I will add that your idea on tranquilizing deer for fun and that it would have no harmful effects is laughable at best. Again...more ammo for the anti's. You guys do realize they are against fishing too right?

 

[wildtrout2]

Mountainbrookie, if you kill a doe from about late Oct on, odds are VERY GOOD that you actually killed 3 deer, and possibly 4 as a doe will sometimes have 3 fawns. This should be taken into consideration. I don't know where you get your information from.

 

[Mountainbrookie]

wildtrout2 wrote:
Mountainbrookie, if you kill a doe from about late Oct on, odds are VERY GOOD that you actually killed 3 deer, and possibly 4 as a doe will sometimes have 3 fawns. This should be taken into consideration. I don't know where you get your information from.

That is certainly a possibility but it doesn't amount to an on average killing of three deer. It's actually an antlerless deer season and a large percentage of the harvest is made up of fawns of the year, button bucks and does, which will not have fawns inside of them. Add to that younger 1.5 year old does typically have only one fawn the following year.

The Pennsylvania rifle season for deer occurs when it does for varying reasons. None of which are to make sure does are pregnant before they are killed. As I stated before, it doesn't matter when you kill a doe in the fall, she's not going to have fawns the following spring. There is no maximum effect or design to get does pregnant before you shoot them. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Let's take into account that there are close to 1 million deer hunters in the woods with high powered rifles on opening day of gun season, from a safety stand point it's much safer to do when all the foliage is off of the trees and undergrowth. There's one reason.

For many years deer in this state were managed for hunter satisfaction, with little regard to habitat. Part of that hunter satisfaction aspect was having a large population of deer which also meant leaving them relatively undisturbed during the rut to ensure 'success' if you will. Having deer season after the rut is actually for the opposite reasons that Pcray is stating. There's another reason.

Traditionally October and November have been small game hunting seasons and back in the day it was quite a big deal. Having rifle deer hunters in the woods and fields at the same time isn't a good idea for many reasons. Add another reason.

Gun season in this state is when it is in this day and age based on tradition and safety. That's about it. There is no grand design behind it, at least not the one being proposed on this forum.

If you want to come on a message board and make claims in a "this is a fact" kind of way at least have some knowledge of what you're talking about. BTW I get my information from very reliable sources.

Now before we start talking about livestock trailers full of coyotes and mountain lions with PGC ear tags I'm going to leave it at that.

 

[Pontus]

Mountainbrookie, I agree with you on everything you've said there. That being said,

BTW I get my information from very reliable sources.

Is almost always a clear identifier of someone trying to sound like they know more than they do. Unless you can provide clear sources from which you get your information, then you're doing the exact same thing as someone that makes statements in a "'this is fact' kind of way." If you don't have direct sources on this, then you have to admit that while that is your opinion, and it makes sense, there are a lot of factors that go into the decisions made, and you're speculating the same as anyone else.

 

[JackM]

People who read (critically) are often as wise as those who "do."

 

[wildtrout2]

wildtrout2 wrote:
Mountainbrookie, if you kill a doe from about late Oct on, odds are VERY GOOD that you actually killed 3 deer, and possibly 4 as a doe will sometimes have 3 fawns. This should be taken into consideration. I don't know where you get your information from.

I still stick to what I said, because it's true. How do you figure a doe that is bred in Oct/Nov isn't going to have fawns the following Spring? Please explain why you think differently.

 

[Mountainbrookie]

wildtrout,

Show me anywhere that I said a doe bred in the fall isn't going to have fawns in the spring?

 

[Mountainbrookie]

Pontus wrote:
Mountainbrookie, I agree with you on everything you've said there. That being said,

BTW I get my information from very reliable sources.

Is almost always a clear identifier of someone trying to sound like they know more than they do. Unless you can provide clear sources from which you get your information, then you're doing the exact same thing as someone that makes statements in a "'this is fact' kind of way." If you don't have direct sources on this, then you have to admit that while that is your opinion, and it makes sense, there are a lot of factors that go into the decisions made, and you're speculating the same as anyone else.

I get my information from a lifetime of hunting deer, watching deer, reading about deer, their biology, management practices, studies by biologists, ect. There is no one single source for me to link to. If any of you can prove me wrong so be it. lol

The following is nothing but hyperbole and I have indeed proved with common sense that it is wrong...

And keep in mind, with hunting, for instance, we choose when the deer season is precisely based on the time when it will damage the deer population the most. Right after the does become pregnant.

Nonetheless, the vast majority of does are harvested in the anterless rifle season, and it's timing was designed to be after the rut, ensuring that essentially all does are pregnant for maximum effect.

When you guys see the flaws in that line of thinking let me know.

;-)


I have nothing against pcray at all. It's just that when you make proclamations and so many on here take it for the gospel truth, which from what I've seen on here they often do, you're not doing anyone any favors as far as letting them learn anything. Maybe some of this goes back to the reproducing rainbows thread. Where he also contradicted himself after making numerous proclamations. Either way I don't care, he's probably a nice guy and all but it doesn't mean he can't be called out when he's wrong.

And on this he is wrong.