Smallmouth question / your experience (Susky watershed)

[krayfish2]

Been thinking and talked with my nephew about the bass issues, removal of closed spawn season and different sections of the river system. Questions for those who fish Susky / Juniata (all branches)

So.....

Where have you seen the long/thin bass with vertical bars? I've caught these in low numbers in the Susky between Selinsgrove and Middletown. More frequently 5+ miles up the Juniata.

What about the short stocky bass that are almost all black? They are built much heavier and are differently colored. This accounts for a majority of the bass I catch in the main Susky and lower 5-10 miles of the Juniata.

Bass with growths, sores and blotchy skin? I see these in the main river from Harrisburg north to Liverpool.

Are the guys fishing the west branch seeing any of those freakish fish? How about Great Bend down past Sunbury? Has the state identified the exact borders where the problem fish start to become more common? What about the two fish types that almost appear to be different species? I'm starting to think there's going to be a pretty clear line where you start to see major irregularities and there's got to be a cause that's being overlooked or covered up.

Thoughts?

 

[jifigz]

I mostly fish the Juniata from between Newton Hamilton and Mifflintown and I have seen all 3 of the types of fish that you describe.....at least I think......I'm not sure about long and slender fish, but I'm assuming you mean the majority of the smallies I catch.....

I would say that I don't see too many with sores or the black, blotchy skin but occasion. I also don't see too many of the super short, stunted length looking fish with irregularly fattened midsections. I'd say the majority of the bass are normal smallies.

 

[Dave_W]

I'm generally in agreement with jifigz, although I mostly fish the lower Juniata, Dauphin Narrows section of the Susky, and the west side Susky tribs.

I rarely see sores or fish with wide variance in color patterns and I tend to pay pretty close attention to fish coloration, morphological variation, etc. It has been my experience that I tend to see "blotchy bass" more in the lower J and on larger fish during the pre-spawn period. Other than that, I can't say anything else consistently.

Might make for a fun, unscientific study: maybe photograph some SMBs randomly from different sections of the river and at different times of the year? There are some river rats who post a lot of fish pics on other social media sites and these may be worth looking at too.

 

[jifigz]

Dave, I like your idea. I will take photos of lots of bass I catch in the river section near my house. I have only gone out once for smallies this year and received a skunking, but soon I should have plenty of pics to share once I start targeting them more.

 

[coyoterahn]

I fish the Susquehanna quite often anywhere from 15 or so miles north of Harrisburg to south of Sunbury.
I am still seeing some with the black blotchy skin pigmentation but not a lot. However the numbers of smallies with the red sores is significantly less than 3 or so years ago. If I understand correctly those red sores are caused by some type of virus.
My feeling is that typically the bass caught in cold water during the winter are somewhat lighter in color than later in the year. I’ve often assumed it had something to do with diet or less daylight but that’s purely a guess on my part. I have caught pale/light colored bass during the summer/fall periods so that doesn’t line up with my previous assumption.
I’ve caught quite a few dark sort of plumpy smallies but none that I ever thought were significantly different than most others. I’m intrigued by what Krayfish is referring to here.
Agree, it would be interesting to see some pics.

 

[krayfish2]

here's what I'd consider normal smallies

 

[krayfish2]

short and fat versions.....also, has anyone else encountered a "shots table" while floating? We did!! LMAO

 

[Paraleptalata]

Kray,

Been following this topic. I am a full time guide in central PA for trout and bass. Have fished the Juniata since I was 3 and the Susky soon after that. Grew up and still live less than 10 minutes from the Juniata and just a few mor from the Susky. Being 38 now that gives me somewhere around 35 years of experiences on these waters.

I have consistently caught or netted for other anglers all the fish you describe for many years now. I have also fished and guided through the good years and the terrible ones.

I have listened to all the theories of why the bass have come and gone on the Susky and on the Juniata in the early 2000s. Now we are again at a loss for the repeat on the Susky. I will share my theory with you in limited detail. The changes in farming practices could be the cause. No more tilling has got rid of sediment load in the rivers but now we farm chemically more than ever before. Fertilizer, herbicides, and pesticides on every field (and there are a **** ton of acres being farmed in these drainages). Not to mention the ridiculous amount of chemical fertilizer and herbicides that every person wants to slam on their lawn every year. No Commonwealth Commission or Department will ever deal with this. Ag is to powerful. Plus they may have admit that they all got it wrong when they backed no till farming efforts. Just theory and not fact by any means but as farming practices changed we started to have trouble in the big rivers. Hope this doesnt derail your topic and gets at the heart of your questions.

 

[krayfish2]

I'm pretty sure we've run a trip together before LoL

 

[larkmark]

I have seen the different coloration and shapes but always figured it had something to do with habitat maybe? I tend to see the ones with more bars and marks in rocky sections but honestly do not know. I caught bass last summer and this spring that looked like footballs they were so fat and round.
I know there are still bass around but not in the numbers we had years ago. Of course the ones you get now tend to be a lot bigger in general. I fished river starting in 1970s and it was rare for me to catch an 18" fish back then. But you could very easily catch 100 bass in an outing. I regularly get 18"+ bass if I catch any at all.
My guess is wastewater treatment plants are the main culprit along with the things Para says above.
I would not call it a cover up exactly but certainly feel the fish comm. treads very carefully when when it comes to pointing fingers. They are a government agency and if they said Harrisburg or some other city or big Agriculture was responsible for decimating the fish in river there would be problems.
The pollution of Susquehanna watershed will have to be addressed at some point. Realistically i would guess it will come about when lawsuits are started against the main polluters.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Larkmark. DEP is the government agency with direct oversight of the industries you mentioned not PFBC. The past executive director was very outspoken on issues with SMB and the river.

Wastewater treatment plants in many cases are treating water with a higher efficiency than ever before. Obviously there are still many collection systems that combine with stormwater that ultimately release raw sewage in storm events. The systems remaining that need significant upgrades, we are talking huge 100s millions dollar projects. The next issue with STPs is the lack of ability to treat pharmaceuticals, but nobody wants to touch that issue either.

 

[krayfish2]

pharmaceuticals..... I think this is a major factor for what is going on right now.

 

[larkmark]

I am really concerned about the pharmaceuticals. Bass without working reproductive organs cannot be good.
DEP or Fish comm. are both govt agencies that answer to big business more than we might like to think
You asked where the dividing line is....hard to pinpoint but since we are seeing the lower river dying out to a great extent and the bay also suffering we do have to think the bad stuff is coming from upstream and concentrating below. I personally would say the river is very different above Harrisburg than below.

 

[krayfish2]

It seems like the issues really start between Selinsgrove and Duncannon

 

[coyoterahn]

krayfish2 wrote:
It seems like the issues really start between Selinsgrove and Duncannon

I agree with this. From my experience, the issues of both sores and reduced smallmouth numbers intensifies south of Herndon and Port Trevorton. Interestingly, there is virtually no major manufacturing in or immediately below those areas. (That I can think of) I would venture to say that those waters are cleaner than they’ve been for over 50 years, not taking into account agricultural runoff or pharmaceuticals.
On the Herndon (east) side of the river, there does seem to be a lot more raw manure being put out by a particular group of farmers who moved up from the Lancaster area. Whether this has any negative impact on the smallmouth population is beyond my technical ability to make.

 

[larkmark]

I think Bob Clouser started sounding the alarm 30 or more years ago. He mainly fished Middletown area and above. He always mentioned that it was a decline in bass, sunfish,rock bass etc. That area was at one time loaded with all those fish. I suspect the pollution is just concentrating and over time will build up in whole lower and middle river. I think we are all open to any alternative explanations other than the ones mentioned above but no government officials seem to be offering much. I tried to put up pic of one of those barred bass. Taken in a real rocky section. I catch more greenish or gold or dark ones without markings in our creeks down here. Not sure if that has anything to do with it or not.

 

[jifigz]

The short, fat smallies are something that I've just started seeing in larger numbers in the past few years. I'm not concerned about patterns on the fish other than the blotchy, black marks..I don't see much of that in the middle/upper Juniata. I don't see many fish with sores, either..there is definitely no where near the number of smallies that there used to be, in my opinion.

The fishing in general is not as good as it used to be. No one knows why. Maybe it is farming chemicals? Maybe it is meditation metabolites? Who knows? I'm sure that we are able to crack the code but there will always be powerful corporations and people that are capable of keeping secrets hid.

At least the wild trout seem to be doing fine.

 

[troutbert]

Are short, fat smallmouth really an indication of a problem?

Maybe they are just getting plenty to eat.

Maybe they've discovered pizza and beer.

 

[jifigz]

I know that you are implying a sense of humor here, but yes, I think they are a problem. Having fished the Juniata for my entire life and having never seen these fish until the last 5 years or so, I'd say that they are a problem. The fish look almost as if they have some kind of genetic disease or disability. I think this short, stubby growth is linked to something happening in the watershed.

Overall, the upper Juniata I feel is doing much better than the downstream sections of the watershed that are influenced by greater population.


















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[krayfish2]

From speaking with the Clousers I get the impression that there's almost two separate species or possibly a subspecies of some sort. I have nothing to back it up it's just what we discussed in a conversation one time. If you look at your catch is throughout the day, you'll see very dramatically different looking fish. I don't think it has much to do with where they come from because I've caught the short stocky ones and very shallow/rocky water in the middle of summer.