Especially after reading Afish's thread on the history of Rainbow trout stockings .History of Rainbow stocking I always wondered why Brownie's hold over after being stocked better compared to Rainbows even though rainbows are supposed to be able to tolerate higher water temperatures .......... Any thoughts ?
Question ?
- Thread starter Fredrick
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This is a fascinating subject and I'm not sure there's a solid answer. I'd guess the main reason for the popularity of 'bows is they simply grow faster and larger in hatcheries and are thus cheaper to raise. Many fishermen don't mind catching 'bows, or don't even know the difference between browns and 'bows, so why not just stock 'bows? As for the water temp thing, I think even this is open to debate. Some sources say 'bows tolerate warmer water and some say browns do. I think some specific 'bow sub species in the desert West/Mexico have evolved tolerance to high water temps but I'm not sure whether your run-of-th-mill 'rainbow is really more tolerant than your average brown. I do seem to catch more browns in warm summer water but I don't think this really proves much.
Whatever the case, I do think a lot of FFers would prefer to see more browns stocked here in PA. As a general impression, I think stocked browns are more likely to stay where they were stocked and feed on the surface. Many of the creeks stocked here in my neck of the woods (I think the reg water on Yellow Breeches is a good example) definitely fish better for browns. Even though 'bows might make up half the stocked fish they seem to disappear by late spring whereas the browns are still around.
Hhmmm....
Whatever the case, I do think a lot of FFers would prefer to see more browns stocked here in PA. As a general impression, I think stocked browns are more likely to stay where they were stocked and feed on the surface. Many of the creeks stocked here in my neck of the woods (I think the reg water on Yellow Breeches is a good example) definitely fish better for browns. Even though 'bows might make up half the stocked fish they seem to disappear by late spring whereas the browns are still around.
Hhmmm....
pcray1231
Well-known member
Bows are easier to raise, easier to catch, fight harder, and many say they taste better.
My experience is that the stocked variety of browns do tolerate higher water temperatures than the stocked variety of bows, while the bows are more active in colder water. I know in the stocked streams I fish, despite nearly equal numbers of each being stocked, the early season is heavily dominated by bows and the late season dominated by browns. That was true before and after I started using fly gear, so its not just that browns rise better and I like dry flies. I would argue it is optimal to have a mix so that the streams fish better over a longer period fo time, and thats kind of how its done now.
Of course, there is enough genetic engineering going on that I don't think you can translate that to other states' stocking programs or wild fish. There may very well be strains of rainbows which tolerate higher water temperatures or strains of browns which don't.
I also actually like the migratory nature of rainbows. I hate when fish all stay right where they were put. I'd rather be able to find fish after outwalking the crowds away from the stocking points. But rainbows do move more...
My experience is that the stocked variety of browns do tolerate higher water temperatures than the stocked variety of bows, while the bows are more active in colder water. I know in the stocked streams I fish, despite nearly equal numbers of each being stocked, the early season is heavily dominated by bows and the late season dominated by browns. That was true before and after I started using fly gear, so its not just that browns rise better and I like dry flies. I would argue it is optimal to have a mix so that the streams fish better over a longer period fo time, and thats kind of how its done now.
Of course, there is enough genetic engineering going on that I don't think you can translate that to other states' stocking programs or wild fish. There may very well be strains of rainbows which tolerate higher water temperatures or strains of browns which don't.
I also actually like the migratory nature of rainbows. I hate when fish all stay right where they were put. I'd rather be able to find fish after outwalking the crowds away from the stocking points. But rainbows do move more...
bikerfish
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not sure about the stocked rainbows vs browns. maybe the rainbow grow bigger sooner, so that's what the commish thinks people want. I do know lately that I've caughten about 15 bows to 1 brown on stocked streams. as for wild rainbows, I believe it has to do with the ph level of the water. there are only a handful of streams in pa that have all the right ingredients to support wild rainbows
In my expierence I have noticed that browns always hold over better than rainbows in my local stocked waters even though the state stocks alot more bows in my area .
And guys try to keep on track with this thread and don't hyjack it
And guys try to keep on track with this thread and don't hyjack it
MKern
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Small bows do eat more than the other species, especially when real small. Therefore they grow quicker.
However, I think the simplest reason, is because that's what they have always done and they don't want to ruffle any feathers. Especially from the people who say the only edible trout is a bow.
However, I think the simplest reason, is because that's what they have always done and they don't want to ruffle any feathers. Especially from the people who say the only edible trout is a bow.
tomgamber
Well-known member
Here's an interesting perspective:
I am doubtful about the reported optimum feeding temperature ranges for trout. On-stream experience does not support the 'facts.' My brother, Gary, has a theory about feeding and temperature: the trend in temperature direction is more important than the actual temperature. At the lower range, he thinks that the exact water temperature is not as important as whether it's getting warmer or colder. If the stream temperature rises from 45 to 50 °F (7 to 10 °C), the trout will get jazzed and increase feeding - perhaps not as aggressively as they might at, say, 60 °F. But if the temperature drops from 55 down to 50 °F (13 to 10 °C) they will go off their feed. So you could have two identical water temperatures in the same creek, perhaps two or three days apart, and the feeding habits could be totally different. It depends on whether the water is getting warmer or colder.
the link: http://flyanglersonline.com/features/canada/can10.php
BTW...in searching for upper and lower tolerance and ideal temps for the big 3 species of trout, while they were all in the same basic range, but none of the temps listed were the same. So there is quite a bit of question...
I am doubtful about the reported optimum feeding temperature ranges for trout. On-stream experience does not support the 'facts.' My brother, Gary, has a theory about feeding and temperature: the trend in temperature direction is more important than the actual temperature. At the lower range, he thinks that the exact water temperature is not as important as whether it's getting warmer or colder. If the stream temperature rises from 45 to 50 °F (7 to 10 °C), the trout will get jazzed and increase feeding - perhaps not as aggressively as they might at, say, 60 °F. But if the temperature drops from 55 down to 50 °F (13 to 10 °C) they will go off their feed. So you could have two identical water temperatures in the same creek, perhaps two or three days apart, and the feeding habits could be totally different. It depends on whether the water is getting warmer or colder.
the link: http://flyanglersonline.com/features/canada/can10.php
BTW...in searching for upper and lower tolerance and ideal temps for the big 3 species of trout, while they were all in the same basic range, but none of the temps listed were the same. So there is quite a bit of question...
osprey
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I'm still sticking with oxygen as the most important factor but i'll second that up with metabolism , i'm guessin the rainbows are more high strung as juveniles and young adults than brownies and i'll bet young brookies are more wired than both
I was referring to the stocked trout in the reg water at Allenberry. Wild browns and 'bows are a different case in point.
Sorry Fred.
Getting back to the issue of why browns seem to hold over better - and like Pcray, I agree they do - this may also be slightly related to difficulty to catch and tolerance for small streams. Again, I can't prove this (mostly a supposition) but I think that many of the ATWs here in PA that get a mixed brown/bow stocking, the 'bows might be a bit more vulnerable to the average fisherman: they seem to hold more in open, obvious runs whereas browns seem to seek deeper water with more cover. Browns also seem to me to be more selective feeders which might also insulate them from getting caught by the bait/spin crowd; and finally I think 'bows may have a harder time thriving in the small creeks that we have here in PA (again, just a theory) which may explain their disappearance. Obviously, there are many exceptions to these matters.
So, anyway, by late spring/summer many streams stocked with an equal number of browns and 'bows definitely seem to hold primarily browns.
pcray1231
Well-known member
I'm not sure if thats completely true. I do think rainbows tend to move more, and I've found the rainbows in the headwaters many times. But moreso than anything, I think the rainbows just get sluggish at a lower temperature than the browns. In those same streams that seem absolutely devoid of rainbows in late spring, I start catching rainbows again in the fall when the water cools, and I'm not talking about fall stocked fish.
For whatever reason, our stocked browns feed better in warmer water temperatures than the rainbows, and the stocked rainbows feed better in colder temperatures. As I said, I don't mean to imply this translates nationwide, it may or may not be only our domestic strains.
I catch my share of holdover rainbows the next spring.
gulfgreyhound
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I think that it goes back to limits of tolerance and limiting factors.
Which factor most determines which species will live and thrive in a given habitat?Temperature,upper and lowest range, dissolved Oxygen content. I believe the temperature is the single controlling factor.
Which factor most determines which species will live and thrive in a given habitat?Temperature,upper and lowest range, dissolved Oxygen content. I believe the temperature is the single controlling factor.
Interesting question Fredrick. I would love to hear Mike's take on the whole thing.
Pcray,
I never noticed or thought much about the stocked rainbow colder water/ stocked brown warmer water thing. I try to take note in my future fishing on ATWs.
One thing I can say for sure, on the Delaware River, as a general rule, the wild rainbows tend to hang more in the warmer mainstem and more wild browns are found in the cooler West Branch (below the dam).
salvelinusfontinalis
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Could it be that a browns life cycle is around 10-12 years and a rainbows life cycle is around 3-5 years?
pcray1231
Well-known member
Afish,
It's hard to say on wild rainbows because we have so few wild ones. But what I said doesn't seem to hold as true with wild browns. My observation was regarding stocked fish only, but I stand by it. My experiences have been reasonably consistent over a number of different streams and years.
I do not know, but I always wondered whether it was actually intentional genetic engineering on the part of the PFBC. It would make sense, again, to provide a better fishery throughout a longer time period.
It's hard to say on wild rainbows because we have so few wild ones. But what I said doesn't seem to hold as true with wild browns. My observation was regarding stocked fish only, but I stand by it. My experiences have been reasonably consistent over a number of different streams and years.
I do not know, but I always wondered whether it was actually intentional genetic engineering on the part of the PFBC. It would make sense, again, to provide a better fishery throughout a longer time period.
As I said, I plan to take notice on streams with stocked BT & RT trout.
One observation I can make concerning BT & RT (wild or stocked). The RT favor the faster water. Many times I fish the faster sections and catch RT and catch BT in the slower sections of the same stream.
Also in general, RT tend to feed and rise to dries more readily in the bright part of the day, where as BT hide and sometimes sulk midday and appear in the evening or early morning.
I also believe RT tend to hit our more brightly colored and flies with flash on them more readily than BT.
All good stuff!
One observation I can make concerning BT & RT (wild or stocked). The RT favor the faster water. Many times I fish the faster sections and catch RT and catch BT in the slower sections of the same stream.
Also in general, RT tend to feed and rise to dries more readily in the bright part of the day, where as BT hide and sometimes sulk midday and appear in the evening or early morning.
I also believe RT tend to hit our more brightly colored and flies with flash on them more readily than BT.
All good stuff!
pcray1231
Well-known member
Afish,
I also agree with everything you just wrote. The flash, I think, has to do with their propensity to hit eggs. RT seem to like eggs and egg patterns anytime. BT will hit them when there are natural eggs around, like during the sucker run or behind steelhead, but other than that BT are very difficult to catch on egg patterns. I suppose we have to remember that RT are natural to west coast streams where they evolved with steelhead and salmon.
I also agree with everything you just wrote. The flash, I think, has to do with their propensity to hit eggs. RT seem to like eggs and egg patterns anytime. BT will hit them when there are natural eggs around, like during the sucker run or behind steelhead, but other than that BT are very difficult to catch on egg patterns. I suppose we have to remember that RT are natural to west coast streams where they evolved with steelhead and salmon.
wildtrout2
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Regarding this question, which I think is interesting, waaay back when I used to fish for stocked trout (rainbows & browns), it was almost always the browns that remained in the streams through the summer. Almost exclusivly. This may or may not have been because of local conditions. I don't think there's a cookie cutter answer, but oxygen levels and water temps probably are the key players.
