Graphite Rod differences
- Thread starter longbowman58
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I've seen two people fishing big name, expensive modern graphite rods cast and hook some obstruction, then jerk on the rod to try to loosen the fly, and snap the rod a little bit below the tip.
I don't think that is likely to happen with the more "old school" fly rods. Many of the newer expensive rods are higher modulus, which gives you more line speed. But it makes them more brittle. That's the tradeoff.
And they are thinner walled than rods in the past, making them lighter, which makes them enjoyable to cast. But thinner walled rods are more likely to fail. It's a weight vs durability tradeoff.
I talked to a someone who guides in Alaska and he said the rod breakage rate is very high up there with people using the high modulus thin walled type of fly rod. Not surprising at all. For that type of fishing, you'd be better of with a rod that is maybe not quite as much of a "rocket" but that can take some abuse.
I don't think that is likely to happen with the more "old school" fly rods. Many of the newer expensive rods are higher modulus, which gives you more line speed. But it makes them more brittle. That's the tradeoff.
And they are thinner walled than rods in the past, making them lighter, which makes them enjoyable to cast. But thinner walled rods are more likely to fail. It's a weight vs durability tradeoff.
I talked to a someone who guides in Alaska and he said the rod breakage rate is very high up there with people using the high modulus thin walled type of fly rod. Not surprising at all. For that type of fishing, you'd be better of with a rod that is maybe not quite as much of a "rocket" but that can take some abuse.
troutbert,
You hit the nail right on the head. Sacrifice an enth of an ounce by making rods with thinner walls, thereby selling more rods so a manufacturer can claim their rod as the lightest, newest, greatest, fastest.
No thank you, I'll take my "antiquated" rods any day. Take a licking and keep on ticking. Somehow I can cast them and catch plenty of fish.
You hit the nail right on the head. Sacrifice an enth of an ounce by making rods with thinner walls, thereby selling more rods so a manufacturer can claim their rod as the lightest, newest, greatest, fastest.
No thank you, I'll take my "antiquated" rods any day. Take a licking and keep on ticking. Somehow I can cast them and catch plenty of fish.
k-bob
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different issues here: cost, weight, durability, etc.
OP asked if there really is a difference in graphite rods? Imho, yes. Then mentioned "really expensive ones"... I think the best of the middle ground is better for most fishing trips.
there is a lot of room between basic and megabuck. imho, some new rods that cast very well are mid-priced and a bit heavy, not expensive and superlight. echo carbon.
my 7'3" echo carbon two weight weighs three ounces, versus the two-ounce weight of my mystic 7'3" two weight. the echo was recently out there as a $125 closeout, mystic would be twice as much. echo is an 8, mystic is a 10 (a 2pc wonder for my trips for spooky wild browns on dries).
I once broke an echo carbon tip by hitting a branch with the last few inches of the rod in mid cast. they charged me $35.
I fish a lot and would rather use a rod that is more enjoyable to cast, plus with the downright scary accuracy of an echo carbon I should catch more fish.
PA trout arent going to break rods very often. I am something of an expert at putting flies in trees, and have never broken a rod tip pulling one out with any fly rod... (knot leader or fly has to be weak link, not rod tip... worst case, point the rod at the fly before you pull so the rod isnt stressed)
if you look up the fly fish ohio great two weight shootout, one reviewer summarized the echo 2:
"The rod handled the DT2 and the WF3 equally well. Fly size didn't seem to matter (within reason) and the outfit was accurate to a fault. In my notes I wrote "I feel everything about the cast and can do tricks - amazing reach and puddle casts, awesome change-of-direction casts and very, very good roll casts to whatever distance I need." I went on to say "If you aren't delivering the fly with delicacy and precision, it's you and not the rod." This stick has great fish feel, but I felt it to be just a touch soft in that last bit of butt strength. I noted "good choice for small trout or bigger fish on calm waters." Finally, my last sentence in my casting notes simply said "I love this fly rod."
I agree, that is very much my experience, and the echo was $170 msrp before the $125 closeouts... I also have a 7'6" echo 3w, great caster as well.
OP asked if there really is a difference in graphite rods? Imho, yes. Then mentioned "really expensive ones"... I think the best of the middle ground is better for most fishing trips.
there is a lot of room between basic and megabuck. imho, some new rods that cast very well are mid-priced and a bit heavy, not expensive and superlight. echo carbon.
my 7'3" echo carbon two weight weighs three ounces, versus the two-ounce weight of my mystic 7'3" two weight. the echo was recently out there as a $125 closeout, mystic would be twice as much. echo is an 8, mystic is a 10 (a 2pc wonder for my trips for spooky wild browns on dries).
I once broke an echo carbon tip by hitting a branch with the last few inches of the rod in mid cast. they charged me $35.
I fish a lot and would rather use a rod that is more enjoyable to cast, plus with the downright scary accuracy of an echo carbon I should catch more fish.
PA trout arent going to break rods very often. I am something of an expert at putting flies in trees, and have never broken a rod tip pulling one out with any fly rod... (knot leader or fly has to be weak link, not rod tip... worst case, point the rod at the fly before you pull so the rod isnt stressed)
if you look up the fly fish ohio great two weight shootout, one reviewer summarized the echo 2:
"The rod handled the DT2 and the WF3 equally well. Fly size didn't seem to matter (within reason) and the outfit was accurate to a fault. In my notes I wrote "I feel everything about the cast and can do tricks - amazing reach and puddle casts, awesome change-of-direction casts and very, very good roll casts to whatever distance I need." I went on to say "If you aren't delivering the fly with delicacy and precision, it's you and not the rod." This stick has great fish feel, but I felt it to be just a touch soft in that last bit of butt strength. I noted "good choice for small trout or bigger fish on calm waters." Finally, my last sentence in my casting notes simply said "I love this fly rod."
I agree, that is very much my experience, and the echo was $170 msrp before the $125 closeouts... I also have a 7'6" echo 3w, great caster as well.
greenghost
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Ironically, I bought a used Sage VPS about 5 years ago thinking that it was an older and therefore more durable rod. Wrong! I snapped the tip section for the third time last year. I haven't even sent it back yet for repairs. If anybody wants to buy a VPS490 with a broken tip, let me know.
Lesson learned: Older rods do not necessarily equate to more durable rods... no matter how end or low end the name.
DGC
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OP said:
I don't know what it is about the extra 6 inches, but a great feeling 9 footer is a rare pleasure, and being rare, you have to pay up for it. Yet a great feeling 8.5 footer is common. Doesn't mean there aren't any dogs--you still have to swing them--but if your mind automatically equates big water with a 9 ft, you might try the 8.5 and see if the easier swing doesn't more than compensate for the 6 inches of reach.
So out of curiosity, is your IM6 an 8.5 footer or shorter? If so, you are happy with it because it's a nice rod at a length that is, apparently, not that hard to make at an affordable price and still feel great.
I don't know what it is about the extra 6 inches, but a great feeling 9 footer is a rare pleasure, and being rare, you have to pay up for it. Yet a great feeling 8.5 footer is common. Doesn't mean there aren't any dogs--you still have to swing them--but if your mind automatically equates big water with a 9 ft, you might try the 8.5 and see if the easier swing doesn't more than compensate for the 6 inches of reach.
So out of curiosity, is your IM6 an 8.5 footer or shorter? If so, you are happy with it because it's a nice rod at a length that is, apparently, not that hard to make at an affordable price and still feel great.
[/quote]
Ironically, I bought a used Sage VPS about 5 years ago thinking that it was an older and therefore more durable rod. Wrong! I snapped the tip section for the third time last year. I haven't even sent it back yet for repairs. If anybody wants to buy a VPS490 with a broken tip, let me know.
Lesson learned: Older rods do not necessarily equate to more durable rods... no matter how end or low end the name.[/quote]
I don't think we're talking about the same thing with a Sage VPS rod as being "old". When were they manufactured?
Two of my favorite rods were made in the 80's. A Thomas & Thomas Supralite 7 1/2' 4 weight that weighs 2 oz. and a Sage 480 RP that weighs in at 2 1/2 oz. Extremely heavy rods (sigh) that battled quite a few branches.
Ironically, I bought a used Sage VPS about 5 years ago thinking that it was an older and therefore more durable rod. Wrong! I snapped the tip section for the third time last year. I haven't even sent it back yet for repairs. If anybody wants to buy a VPS490 with a broken tip, let me know.
Lesson learned: Older rods do not necessarily equate to more durable rods... no matter how end or low end the name.[/quote]
I don't think we're talking about the same thing with a Sage VPS rod as being "old". When were they manufactured?
Two of my favorite rods were made in the 80's. A Thomas & Thomas Supralite 7 1/2' 4 weight that weighs 2 oz. and a Sage 480 RP that weighs in at 2 1/2 oz. Extremely heavy rods (sigh) that battled quite a few branches.
k-bob
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Sometimes I take a guy fishing who doesnt really fly fish. So I wind up on the same stream with two different 7' two weights, both mine. I'd never carry two rods to go fishing, but when I have wound up with two this way, I try them both. They really are different.
I have taken a lot of flies out of trees with a variety of recently made 1-3 wt fly rods and never broken a tip. You want the fly knot or leader to give first. Worst case, put the rod down and pull the line without it.
For brookie fishing, I like flies tied on hooks that will bend before something breaks. Can often pull em out, bend em back, keep fishing. Delta dog here has tied some great ones like that.
I have taken a lot of flies out of trees with a variety of recently made 1-3 wt fly rods and never broken a tip. You want the fly knot or leader to give first. Worst case, put the rod down and pull the line without it.
For brookie fishing, I like flies tied on hooks that will bend before something breaks. Can often pull em out, bend em back, keep fishing. Delta dog here has tied some great ones like that.
greenghost
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I believe VPS models first appeared in 1997 -- I'm pretty sure they were Graphite III blanks.
k-bob
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right, old rods aren't all bulletproof and most new rods dont just break themselves in the breeze.
imho, todays best bargains, such as $125 echo carbon closeouts, are much better casters than your garden variety older fly rod.
if you break one every four years and the repair costs $35, so be it.
imho, todays best bargains, such as $125 echo carbon closeouts, are much better casters than your garden variety older fly rod.
if you break one every four years and the repair costs $35, so be it.
