What's the logic behind separate openings in PA?

[echuck66]

I've often wondered, but really haven't devoted too much effort into learning why PA has two separate opening days for trout season.

Can anyone offer a good explanation as to why the folks out in the Eastern part of the state get an early start? (other than the fact that they are closer to Harrisburg)

 

[BrookieChaser]

If I remember correctly, when the split occurred, water temperature was the reason I heard. I can't say that was an official answer though.

 

[djs12354]

Tain't all the Eastern part of the state. Us Northers have to wait for a couple more weeks. It's them Southern folks that get the jump.

 

[echuck66]

I really like the Colorado model of seasons... i.e. they don't have a closed season.

Seems like if we didn't have a closed season, we would not end up with the crowds that we currently end up with at the beginning of the season.

 

[Mike]

Substantially warmer 2wks sooner in the early opening portion of the state based on long term last day of freezing temps as researched by the state climatologists. Likewise, stream temps were heating up earlier and flows were dropping, putting an earlier end to trout fishing in the SE/SC areas of the state on many waters when all fishing started on the traditional opener. Early opener also results in the fish not being in the creeks for an extra two weeks while the forces of nature are combining to reduce their ranks. That's just a couple of the reasons.

 

[Fishidiot]

Several years ago when the split opener date change was proposed, we discussed it at length here. If my memory serves me correctly, I was skeptical of having two different dates and regarded it as a fix for something that wasn't broke.

With the advantage of several years of hindsight, I think the split opener has worked out very well and I wouldn't go back to the old system (speaking as one who lives in the area that opens early).

 

[geebee]

if you Live in SEPA you also have the MD &DE openers too, and their free fishing days too of course.

 

[Mike]

Thanks Fishidiot: A version of this was discussed in the late 1970's or early 1980's using I-80 as a north south divide. It was largely from a hatchery operations perspective. It never flew for some reason. The present version came about when I was pressing for it from a fisheries mgmt perspective and from a social factor perspective. Unknown to me at the time, Tom Cochran was working on a version from a hatchery and transportation perspective. I was assigned to flesh out a logical regional fish mgmt plan and got help from the state climatologist's office. Ultimately, the regional map was produced and tweaked to accommodate borderline waters and an analysis was done by Tom to determine the best way to benefit the hatchery system as well as the ability of the hatchery system to deal with the regional concept. When it looked to be beneficial to the regions and to the hatcheries, the program took tenuous flight once Dick Snyder and others convinced the commissioners to give it a try. If I remember correctly, it did not pass muster on the first try. I still hear some complaints about cold weather, cold water, and the related slower bite, but this is nothing that the rest of the state's anglers had not dealt with for years. Furthermore, we now stock more RT preseason than we ever did, and they hit more readily than brown in the colder water...so some adjustments were made, although the RT adjustment came for a host of reasons unrelated to the water temp.

 

[gfen]

Money.

 

[echuck66]

I still think there should be no closed season... Stock at random times when the streams can support the trout, but don't have an 'opening day'. Leave it a guessing game so to speak as to when the streams get stocked so you don't end up with masses on the banks every time a stocking truck rolls up.

Maybe it's just me and I might be one of those "crazy nut jobs" out there, but I feel the crowds are not good for the sport and definitely not good for the streams. For the life of me, I can't figure out how anyone can enjoy fishing when they're within a foot or two of the next angler, and I really hate seeing all the trash a lot of the irresponsible members of said crowds leave on the ground.

 

[bikerfish]

that will never happen, even though it's probably the best way to go, and I agree you. Our state is stuck in a time warp in so many different ways, from fishing opening days to booze sales, and everything in between.
it's the "good ole boy" mentality, and the closed mindedness that comes from it.
"we always had opening day, so we can't change it"
people argue about the tradition of going to camp with grandpa to fish, which I think is wonderful, but really, do you need the state to TELL you when to go? you just can't plan a fishing trip without some type of "official" day being announced?
get rid of opening day, get rid of the stupid crowds, noise, litter,etc. I quit fishing opening day 20 years ago and this year will be no different, besides, the good fishing doesn't start till may anyways.
did I mention that I don't like opening day?? :lol:

 

[bearfisherman]

Without the opening day madness, there wouldn't be a very good trout program. All those guys that buy a license for one day, or one weekend, are counted on for those dollars to support the rest of us that fish all year. It a nasty cycle - no opening day, no license dollars from a lot of fisherman, loss of fishing opportunities across the board.

Several years ago, it was discussed about some counties in the SW to the early opener. I am all for it - as I walked one of my local streams yesterday, the heron population was having a field day cleaning out many a stocker. As Mike said above, a lot of trout stocked 6 weeks before the opener never get to see a hook.

 

[sipe]

WV has no closed season...their circus is just transformed into truck chasing. I assure you, our system in PA is better. Those fish literally exist in the stream for a matter of hours.

 

[bikerfish]

I guess my hate of opening day goes along with my dislike of stocked trout.

 

[steliejim]

There is no other logic other than it gets the fish out of the hatchery sooner, leaving less trout to feed, despite what any PAFBC employees might tell you.

 

[afishinado]

Gfen wrote:
money

steliejim wrote:
There is no other logic other than it gets the fish out of the hatchery sooner, leaving less trout to feed, despite what any PAFBC employees might tell you.

Given the weather in the SE region is milder, why not give anglers an extra two weeks to fish for trout in the region?

If the FBC generates more revenue or saves money (our license money), that money goes towards something else to benefit fish and fishing.....no? How's that a bad thing?

 

[steliejim]

Nota bad thing at all, I'm all for the extra 2 weeks to fish, the commish saving money, etc.

But let's be honest. It comes down to thinning the herd at the hatcheries, no matter what fancy reason they give.

 

[echuck66]

Without the opening day madness, there wouldn't be a very good trout program. All those guys that buy a license for one day, or one weekend, are counted on for those dollars to support the rest of us that fish all year. It a nasty cycle - no opening day, no license dollars from a lot of fisherman, loss of fishing opportunities across the board.

Yeah, I'm not sure I agree with this, and I definitely don't agree that the crowds are good for the fish or the environment. How many times have you gone fishing only to discover discarded beer cans, bait containers, sandwich wrappers, etc., not to mention the slew of discarded cigarette butts on the ground and in the water? No amount of money is going to justify that and I'd wager good money that the people would buy their licenses anyway.

That kind of logic is the same type of logic that keeps us from being able to walk into a store and buy a six pack of beer when we feel like having a few beers instead of forcing us to pay bar prices or buy a case of it from a distributor. The distributors argue that it would kill their business. I argue that they should convert their retail sales into wholesale sales to the stores that sell six packs, or simply retire.

As far as trout season goes, I feel that if it were never closed, people would still go fishing in the spring, but wouldn't feel compelled to wedge themselves into a crowd of "anglers" fishing a few of the good holes on a stream on a particular day, because if they didn't, there'd be no more fish in the stream for them to catch. I think you'd still have some crowds in the spring months, but it wouldn't be mass hysteria on a specific or single day of the year.

I do agree, however, that a continuous open season will never happen in PA, but for God's sake, stop publishing the stocking schedules and locations.

 

[Chaz]

echuck66 wrote:
I still think there should be no closed season... Stock at random times when the streams can support the trout, but don't have an 'opening day'. Leave it a guessing game so to speak as to when the streams get stocked so you don't end up with masses on the banks every time a stocking truck rolls up.

Maybe it's just me and I might be one of those "crazy nut jobs" out there, but I feel the crowds are not good for the sport and definitely not good for the streams. For the life of me, I can't figure out how anyone can enjoy fishing when they're within a foot or two of the next angler, and I really hate seeing all the trash a lot of the irresponsible members of said crowds leave on the ground.

Aside from the perspective of a PFBC guy, The answer to your question is 2 parts, part 1 is Mike's answer, part 2 is money. Opening day of trout season brings in a ton of money in the form of license dollars, the only revenue resource PFBC has, and the cost of keep those fish in hatcheries an additional couple of weeks is quite high. I'm of the opinion that there should be no closed season, bug I don't think it will happen in my lifetime.
As for the trash aspect of opening day, it generates a fair amount of trash, but when you actually look at what you find along the streams, most of that trash comes from careless handling of refuse by homeowners. You really find almost anything out there.

 

[blueheron]

Mike answered the question with his usual good natured and informative responses and apparently was involved firsthand in the initial process. If population densities equate with license sales, then I'll guess the SE region generates a higher rate of money for the PFBC and it's self sustaining programs ,including stocking. Let the harvesters have their fun, as long as they pay the fees and follow the rules it's better to let them all meet up and catch their stockies and leave the rest of the year for the guys who view it as a pasttime and not a trip to the fish market. Without the money collected from the bait bombers we'd have a much reduced fisheries program that could lead to worries other than opening day crowds. Ordered my button yesterday instead of fishing and tied some more flies to pass the time.