Survey: Go Ahead and Stock Over Wild Fish!

Especially this part:

"Approximately one-half of the
respondents who expressed an
opinion thought that native
trout populations should be
maintained. The other half preferred
to have native trout supplemented
with hatchery fish and
bag limits unchanged"

We should have those kinds of odds when lobbying for the preservation of wild fish here in Pa.
 
jpb5002 wrote:
Here's what I got from this article...

This survey only accounted for 3% of PA's trout and lake erie combo stamp buyers. These results mean nothing to me.

License sales generating more than $500 million in state revenue should allow for a better survey.

I don't know if that was the sample size or not, but a 3 percent sampling is statistically quite significant.
 
It's a big if, but if my math is correct, the survey sample was 0.3% of the trout stamp buyers. In any case, I look at the results and it strikes me as being an accurate representation of the general trout fishing population's attitudes, except for the fact that I think many respondents probably lied about their awareness of wild trout and whether they give a hoot about them so as to seem more sophisticated than they actually are.
 
I agree Jack.

Also, with a population that big, even 0.3 percent is a significant sample of such a large population. Statistically speaking of course. I don't feel like looking up the numbers, or crunching them, but the margin of error would be small in this case.

The survey was a waste of money. They know before hand who pays their saleries and roughly what their opinions would be on stocking trout. Total waste of time and money. It is like doing another approval rating on Pres. Bush, or Congress. Still low??? Whodathunkit? And by the way ... anyone care to question the sample size on those? Percentage wise, they are a whole lot smaller.

And another thing (speaking of tangents).

I think that we would all agree that the guys who prefer to go after wild trout spend more time on the water. It would be nice of they had more say-so because it is better for the resource. But the problem is that they buy one stamp, the same number as the early season freezer fillers. One vote for each stamp. If they were looking at total money spent; therefore, total revenue generated (rather than stamp sales), the wild trout guys would carry more clout. Much more.
 
Well, I'm torn on the issue.

I'll probably be executed here, but both our fisheries and our game management should be managed for people. I'm not all about feel-good environmentalism for the sake of feel-good environmentalism, but I also feel that enhancing wild trout streams is often the most sound management policy. For a management agency, their mission is/should be to provide the maximum recreational opportunity possible, weighed against the negative consequences, which includes money. The game commission, for instance, should provide the best deer hunting they can, balanced against road hazard, crop damage, and loss of other species (they manage all species, some of which compete for food and habitat with deer).

The fish commission should provide the best sport fishery they can out of each and every public stretch of water. There's only so much money, and an awful lot of streams, so the negative for for your average, marginal stream is that for every dollar you put in one stream, you're taking away from another. I guess you could call my philosophy the best bang (recreational opportunity) for the buck philosophy.

However, while agreeing in principle, I differ significantly with these legislators on the specifics of how to get that effect.

There are a number of specific streams that would benefit, or at least not suffer, as a sport fishery if stocking were eliminated. Wild trout provide a more year round, natural experience. If you can eliminate the $ used in stocking these streams and end up with a fine fishery, well, then the commission just succeeded in its primary mission without spending a dime. Categories:

A. Good wild trout stream: Best bang for the buck possible. Reasonable efforts to improve candidate streams to this category is a good long-term investment.

B: Stays cold enough, but no natural reproduction. Fingerlings is your best bang for the buck.

D: Streams that get too warm. The money you saved from the previous categories allows you to focus your efforts here, improving them all.

Special regulations should be determined by the same procedure. Where pressure is low, no special regulations are needed. Where pressure is high, enact special regs to increase the recreational opportunity.
 
pcray1231 wrote:
.... There are a number of specific streams that would benefit, or at least not suffer, as a sport fishery if stocking were eliminated....

I agree with the premise of your post that recreation should be accomodated consistent with the least harm to the resource. I also think that many of us fail to recognize or credit PFBC with doing a pretty good job of exactly that, which is why I pulled out the above quote.

It seems that most people on this Board want PFBC to "stop stocking wild trout streams," whereas the truth is, they stock very few Class A streams (typically or exclusively in non-class A segments). Since Class B streams are not identified in any resource available to me, I have no idea how many streams with Class B populations are stocked. Do you have some reason to believe it is a significant number? Do you have in mind "specific streams" that shouldn't be stocked, or did you use that language more generically? In other words, did you mean "there are (surely) some such streams..."?
 
JackM,

First, I will agree they do a pretty good job. With thousands of streams that they manage, they get the majority of them right, and we're bound to disagree on a couple. But overall, they have the same approach as they should. And I didn't say recreation should be accomodated with the least harm to the resource. I said recreation should be maximized with the least harm to humans (monetarily, traffic, water use, etc.), WITHOUT specific regard to the resource. I don't view our resources, in PA, as "natural" anymore, that ship sailed long ago. Our resources are manmade, with maybe a boost from nature, but its sufficiently screwed up to the point that there's no use "letting mother nature run its course", we've torn up her map and burnt the pieces. Thus, our resources are for us to use and alter in the way that benefits us the most, so long as we realize there are human consequences, good and bad, to any decision we make. I just think they underestimate some of the streams' ability to grow wild trout.

"I have no idea how many streams with Class B populations are stocked. Do you have some reason to believe it is a significant number?"

I don't have any numbers either, but my suspicion/personal experience would suggest "most" class B streams are stocked, and there's an awful lot of them. This is where the differences with PFBC policy come into play. We all pretty much agree class A streams shouldn't be stocked, and they aren't, and we all pretty much agree streams that have very few, or no, wild fish, should be stocked, and they are. But its in the class B streams there's dissention. Most of these streams couldn't be class A, but that leaves many that could. I believe its currently less than 2% of our "streams with natural reproduction" that are class A. There's a lot of possibilities out there.

The game by the PFBC is all played on when, and where, the streams are surveyed. Whether its a game with bad motives, or just lack of resources by the PFBC to properly monitor so many streams, I do not know. If you surveyed after a drought, some of our class A streams would no longer be class A. But survey after a few years of successive cool, wet summers, and our abundance of water with class A biomass would easily at least triple. There's also a seasonal migration. Many of these streams hold biomasses appropriate only for the headwaters, where the fish spend their summers, and go there in August and its class A by a long shot, shock the lower section and its devoid of fish. But then go back in early spring, and all those fish are spread out over a much bigger area, class B throughout. Or, often a dirt road adds siltation near the access point. Thus, trout populations are much lower near the access points, and they don't carry all that equipment all that far. Yet, after stocking, those stocked fish do move upstream and affect the better trout populations there. Basically, many of our class A streams are class A by "luck of the draw", no better or worse naturally than 5 times as many other streams that aren't class A. Of course, there's the limestoners, which is a different ball game. Spring Creek IS clearly superior to the streams we're talking about here, but it too once relied on stocked fish, and it was a pleasant "surprise" to the PFBC that wild fish thrived after hatchery planting ceased due to pollution and inedible trout.

I think, in some cases, the commission knows this and tries to survey the stream at a time and place where they know it won't be class A, so that they can add the stream, or keep it, on the stocking list. Once on the stocking list, its very hard to get back off it, because the stocked fish deflate the wild trout population. Thus, you could shock a stocked section, and get class B or lower of wild fish. But that doesn't mean it couldn't be class A if there were no stockies. It doesn't mean it could either, you have to judge each stream separately, and global policies do not work.

BTW, I'm mostly familiar, and thus talking about, small-medium sized streams in the NW and NC parts of the state, large streams are by and large too warm.
 
Jack, I agree with most of what you are saying. the problem I have is when they determine the best streams over the entire state by the class system. In certain parts of the state, mainly the western part, ans more specifically the northwesterm part which I am most familiar with, there are very few Class A streams. Therefore they stock everything larger than a trickle that has road access. Therefore I am relegated to fishing the tiniest of streams for the tiniest of fish if I want to enjoy a more natural experience. Some of the best streams in Western PA are only class B or even C. It would be nice if they stopped stocking a few of those to see what happens. Everything is relative, and it should be broken down by region, instead of statewide. The best streams unstocked, and stock the rest. If the best streams happen to be Class B or C, so be it. Stocking them only helps the early season anglers for a couple weeks out of the year and hurts the rest of us for the rest of the year. Central PA has tons of unstocked streams in various sizes because of the high number of Class As. Western PA has very few unstocked streams. I’m just saying it would be nice to have a few more. Might also increase incentive to improve habitat, rather than supplement.

Yea, there are selfish reasons why I would like a few less streams stocked. I’ll be the first to admit that. I couldn't care less for any slime sculpin or whatever. I know it is unlikely to happen, but I can dream can't I? :)
 
The purpose of the proposed changes in management are to increase the total number of trout in streams in PA.

Just saying...
 
Troutbert. Would you be interested in owning your own bridge. :-D
 
FarmerDave wrote:
Troutbert. Would you be interested in owning your own bridge. :-D

Why yes. Yes I would.

I should have explained that better. Here are the details behind what I meant by "The purpose of the proposed changes in management are to increase the total number of trout in streams in PA."

The Commissioners have proposed changes to trout management that would include ending of stocking on top of wild trout and reducing harvest of wild trout. This would increase wild trout populations. And the number of stocked trout would remain the same. So the total number of trout in PA streams would be greater. These Commissioners are TU guys (Bachman, Worobec etc.) and I've heard them speak at TU meetings on many occassions and I have no doubt at all that they are sincere about this.

But of course any proposal to improve things is met with the inevitable blow-back. And this recent survey is part of the blow-back from PFBC staff, i.e. Austen and the top level fisheries managers. They did this survey as part of an effort to fight against the proposed changes offered by the Commissioners.

So that leads to the question of why the staff would fight against a proposal that would lead to an increase in the number of trout in the state. And the reason for that, IMHO, is because of legislators like Hanna and Staback who have threatened to start a Trout War, and to dismantle the PFBC if they do not get lots of trout stocked in the traditional places in their districts. They don't care about trout populations or anything like that. They only know that attacking agencies like the PFBC & Game Commission plays well in their districts. And that getting lots of trout stocked in their district has always translated into votes.

There you have it, in a nutshell. Now, where's that confounded bridge. :)
 
Troutbert wrote: "So that leads to the question of why the staff (of the PFBC) would fight against a proposal that would lead to an increase in the number of trout in the state."


Troutbert, maybe you should follow the money. A decrease in stocking would lead to, at some point, the inevidable closing of some hatcheries and sideline some trucks in the great white fleet. Jobs and job security? Also with a stocking reduction, the fear of decreasing license sales and thus revenue. Jobs and job security?

I believe that the proposal would in the long-run improve fishing and thus increase license sales. In additon, any savings from reduced stocking should not eliminate existing personnel, merely shift the duties of to more productive jobs - IMO.
 
I'll buy that troutbert, and I'm not talking about the bridge. :-D I was just looking at it from the angle of the survey and why I/we feel it was done. The PF&BC has a lot of people who want to do the right thing for the resource, but like you said ...

P.S. The bridge is off the market. Somebody stole it and sold it for scrap. :-D
 
Did not at all get the impression the proposal was intended to result in less stocking. Just less stocking in streams with decent populations of wild trout. Which means more fish available for everywhere else.

They can use those fish to increase the numbers per stocking, increase the number of in-season stockings, increase the number of stocking points, or add new (non wild trout) streams and lakes to the stocking list.
 
pcray1231 wrote:
Did not at all get the impression the proposal was intended to result in less stocking. Just less stocking in streams with decent populations of wild trout. Which means more fish available for everywhere else.

They can use those fish to increase the numbers per stocking, increase the number of in-season stockings, increase the number of stocking points, or add new (non wild trout) streams and lakes to the stocking list.

That's right, the proposal does not include reductions in the number of trout raised and stocked. That would remain the same. Here's the deal.

Stocked Trout: The same
Wild Trout: More
--------------------------
Total Trout: More


The Commisioners should present it in that way, IMHO. It's not only simple to understand, it is also true. We really do have the opportunity to have MORE TROUT in the streams.
 
troutbert wrote:


....Here's the deal.

Stocked Trout: The same
Wild Trout: More
--------------------------
Total Trout: More


The Commisioners should present it in that way, IMHO. It's not only simple to understand, it is also true. We really do have the opportunity to have MORE TROUT in the streams.

Whether ceasing stocking on certain stream will result in increased wild trout numbers is not a given. While there is reason to be optimistic, it is by no means a certainty. However, in the event that wild trout do not respond as hoped, those streams taken off the ATW list will actually have LESS catchable trout than before. It is true that those catchable trout will be elsewhere if the total hatchery production is the same, but there will be less stream sections/milage where those hatchery trout will be concentrated, likely resulting in greater crowding on those ATW sections.
 
price of fuel and feed-there will be less fish but less fishermen,also.lol
 
JackM wrote:
troutbert wrote:


....Here's the deal.

Stocked Trout: The same
Wild Trout: More
--------------------------
Total Trout: More


The Commisioners should present it in that way, IMHO. It's not only simple to understand, it is also true. We really do have the opportunity to have MORE TROUT in the streams.

Whether ceasing stocking on certain stream will result in increased wild trout numbers is not a given. While there is reason to be optimistic, it is by no means a certainty. However, in the event that wild trout do not respond as hoped, those streams taken off the ATW list will actually have LESS catchable trout than before. It is true that those catchable trout will be elsewhere if the total hatchery production is the same, but there will be less stream sections/milage where those hatchery trout will be concentrated, likely resulting in greater crowding on those ATW sections.

Thanks Mr Obvious
 
Whether ceasing stocking on certain stream will result in increased wild trout numbers is not a given. While there is reason to be optimistic, it is by no means a certainty. However, in the event that wild trout do not respond as hoped, those streams taken off the ATW list will actually have LESS catchable trout than before. It is true that those catchable trout will be elsewhere if the total hatchery production is the same, but there will be less stream sections/milage where those hatchery trout will be concentrated, likely resulting in greater crowding on those ATW sections.

What exactly are you considering a catchable trout? ive caught wild trout in the 1 inch range. im confused to why the number of catchable trout would decrease. If the population increases....given that there are a bunch of 1inch and over trout, i dont see why it would be less.

I agree with you troutbert. I think your not only hitting the nail on the head, your sending it through the 2x4. :-D
 
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