Sulpher

[pcray1231]

That looks like pretty "normal" to me, as far as temperature, but we are running really high on precip. Don't know which effects things more, just know that the bugs are, in fact, later than last year at this point.

As for Jack. Yes, it is the length of daylight as the main driver. And if we had a cold spell, the bugs would still happen. Might change the timing a little, obviously something changes the timing a little. What we're trying to figure out is what is the factor that moves em up a week or down a week? Is it water temp (in which case amount of precip is a MAJOR factor, moreso than air temp)? Is it cloudiness (net effect of shortening the days and making emergences later)? Is it muddiness of the water (same effect as cloudiness)? I don't know, but it'd be interesting to keep some detailed data.

But I have observed that it tends to coincide with the plants. If the trees and flowers are late, the hatches will be late as well. Plants are also primarily driven by day length. Leads me to believe its not water temp or muddiness, but something external to the water. i.e. temperature or cloudiness.

If I'm a betting man, my money is on cloudiness which makes the difference. Clouds effectively shorten the day length. Last year was a dry spring, with lots of sunny days, hence earlier emergence. This year has been incredibly wet, which probably equates with more cloudy days, hence later emergences.

And this could all change on a dime. This week is supposed to be pretty nice, which could really move things up next week. Then the next week could be cloudy all week, and move things back, etc....

 

[franklin]

Talking to some regulars at FFP last week they seemed to think the water was colder on many streams than normal for this time of year. Most seemed to think the insects were running a couple weeks behind normal.

On the other side of the coin my mother, an avid bird watcher, says the birds are migrating through earlier this year by about two weeks.

 

[pcray1231]

Well, I'm having an off year on the fishing, I hope to change soon, but right now the only hatch I watched closely was BWO's.

They were maybe a week later than average.

Beyond that, all I know is what I'm being told about the timing of the grannoms and other various hatches. Seems like some are pretty much on time, and some are late, but none have come "early".

 

[csoult]

pcray1231 wrote:
That looks like pretty "normal" to me, as far as temperature, but we are running really high on precip. Don't know which effects things more, just know that the bugs are, in fact, later than last year at this point.

As for Jack. Yes, it is the length of daylight as the main driver. And if we had a cold spell, the bugs would still happen. Might change the timing a little, obviously something changes the timing a little. What we're trying to figure out is what is the factor that moves em up a week or down a week? Is it water temp (in which case amount of precip is a MAJOR factor, moreso than air temp)? Is it cloudiness (net effect of shortening the days and making emergences later)? Is it muddiness of the water (same effect as cloudiness)? I don't know, but it'd be interesting to keep some detailed data.

But I have observed that it tends to coincide with the plants. If the trees and flowers are late, the hatches will be late as well. Plants are also primarily driven by day length. Leads me to believe its not water temp or muddiness, but something external to the water. i.e. temperature or cloudiness.

If I'm a betting man, my money is on cloudiness which makes the difference. Clouds effectively shorten the day length. Last year was a dry spring, with lots of sunny days, hence earlier emergence. This year has been incredibly wet, which probably equates with more cloudy days, hence later emergences.

And this could all change on a dime. This week is supposed to be pretty nice, which could really move things up next week. Then the next week could be cloudy all week, and move things back, etc....

In the ocean the phases of the moon have a lot to do with the cycles from fish to coral.

 

[csoult]

I know the moon affects the tides but...

 

[JackM]

I have always wondered whether the moon phases and positioning could effect emergences. It would work exactly like tides, but more like it effects other animals on land. Perhaps a minimal effect, who knows? Certainly would take a lot of work and guessing to figure out.

 

[SamIAm]

Muddy Creek had invaria hatches Saturday and Sunday

 

[troutbert]

JackM wrote:
I have always wondered whether the moon phases and positioning could effect emergences. It would work exactly like tides, but more like it effects other animals on land. Perhaps a minimal effect, who knows? Certainly would take a lot of work and guessing to figure out.

When I was a kid many newspaper carried "solunar tables" to tell you the peak fishing times. These were developed by John Alden Knight. I just Googled it and found they are still available, published in Montoursville, PA. Whether it works or not, I have no idea.

http://www.solunartables.com/

 

[franklin]

troutbert wrote:

JackM wrote:
I have always wondered whether the moon phases and positioning could effect emergences. It would work exactly like tides, but more like it effects other animals on land. Perhaps a minimal effect, who knows? Certainly would take a lot of work and guessing to figure out.

When I was a kid many newspaper carried "solunar tables" to tell you the peak fishing times. These were developed by John Alden Knight. I just Googled it and found they are still available, published in Montoursville, PA. Whether it works or not, I have no idea.

http://www.solunartables.com/

I've read studies that indicated some species of fish are impacted by moon phase but this was in larger impoundments, but not streams. These studies were on bass. Another moon factor that may come into play is on clear moonlit nights the fish may feed more at night. Especially predators like large browns. I know some guys who have used large streamers at t night on Penns and done well. Still most trout we target are chasing bugs which I don't think are affected by the moon.

 

[JackM]

I am curious why you think bugs would NOT be effected by the moon. I think there have also been studies regarding the moon's effect on land animals. Our human phisiology reacts to changes in daylight length and also moon phases. I just think tracking the effect, with there being so many other motive factors on emergence date and time, would be a near impossible task.

 

[franklin]

It seems to me that there are two possible effects the moon could have on stream insects. Gravitational and light.

Gravitational effects are most often observed on larger bodies of water with minimal currents relative to the gravitational or tide effects. Most streams we fish have substantial current flows relative to any gravitational effects. Also we know most hatches and related insect reproduction cycles tend to be at consistent times of day as opposed to the orbit of the moon which varies year to year relative to the hatch times. This leads me to discount gravitational impacts.

The other factor would be light. I just don't think moonlight is consistent enough or bright enough to have much effect much of the time. If you think of the major hatches in the spring there are only a couple full moon cycles that fall into the time period. How often is it cloudy enough that insects wold even notice the moonlight? Probably more often than not in the spring.

I do agree that the moon does affect various animals and fish. I certainly notice the impact on deer and their routines during hunting season.

I admit there may be some minuscule impact that, as you mention, is so minor it can't be discerned from other factors. If there is it's likely to affect the nymph stages of the insect and less so the adult stages since the adult stages generally last less than one moon cycle.

 

[JackM]

Yes, I agree that the consistency of "time of day" emergence of some aquatic insects suggests that moon position and phase is of minimal effect. Then again, we have the "shoulda been here yesterday" phenomena where a hatch can be thick one day, thin the next, spinners decide to gather, but not to fall, or the spinner fall happens in the early morning rather than overnight. There are still unexplained variations of hatch strength and even timing that the moon position and phase could be having an effect, even if incidental.

 

[pcray1231]

We all seem to agree length of day plays the primary role, and thus cloud cover and such logically have an effect.

But going further on the unexplained, I agree that it doesn't make much sense that air temperature should play a large part, water temp should. Yet, a cold front very often puts everything off.

I've noticed this many times. Example (made up realistic numbers):

Day 1. Sunny, air temp 60 morning, 85 midday. Water temp 58 morning, 64 evening. Good fishing, bugs heavy all day.

Overnight, a cold front blows through. Doesn't even have to produce rain. Sunny again by morning, but cooler.

Day 2. Sunny, air temp 53 morning, 75 midday. Water temp 55 morning, 62 evening. Bad fishing, very few bugs.

The day before a front is often very good, the day after very poor (unless rain brings the water up, then fishing can be good, but bugs are still usually poor). Water temps may be slightly different, but just slightly, and there's certainly a lot of overlap.

Is it possible pressure has an effect (other than cloud cover often correlated with it?). Think about it. The most difficult thing for a bug to do in order to hatch is break the surface tension of the water, which is a stronger barrier under higher pressure. I don't know how they would sense this underwater. And I also don't know that it'd be based solely on the actual pressure, it could be whether its rising or falling. Falling barometer before a front produces a good hatch, rising barometer after puts it off. Lots of stuff in nature seems to me to be based on rising or falling barometers, we seemed to get away from that measure in modern times, but the old guys all swear by it.

 

[JackM]

Add to the agreement that atmospheric pressure may also have an effect on emergences. Maybe it is best to keep it a mystery. Could you imagine if every hatch chaser knew exactly when the best time to be on the water would be?

 

[gfen]

FWIW, aquarium fish can be brought to spawn by manipulating water chemistry, temperature, and the dinural cycle.

I find no reason that all living forms in water aren't governed by the same. Water chemistry changes would be effected by the amount of rain coming in spring (manipulated in a tank by frequent water changes and pH shifts), which coincides with the temperatures reaching the proper range and then finally the day/night cycle reaching the proper point.

I would bank that the dinural cycle is the overriding trigger, where the water chemistry (rain) and temperature provide incentives. IE, as long as we meet basic requirements vis-a-vis temp, the bugs go off based on the sun.

 

[pcray1231]

Could you imagine if every hatch chaser knew exactly when the best time to be on the water would be?

Yes, but then, could you imagine if you knew exactly when the best time to be on the water would be, but the rest of the anglers didn't?

And lets face it, all those idiots out there won't be willing to figure out all the correct combinations of factors for each location, and take all the needed measurements, etc. Too sciency...

 

[gfen]

pcray1231 wrote:
And lets face it, all those idiots out there won't be willing to figure out all the correct combinations of factors for each location, and take all the needed measurements, etc. Too sciency...

They'll just wait for the spotburn mafia!

:hammer:

(this smiley does not properly convey sarcasm and my scorn for the spotburn whiners)

 

[pete41]

(this smiley does not properly convey sarcasm and my scorn for the spotburn whiners)

plenty of eight to the pounders being stocked so why not share the goodies.

 

[franklin]

pcray1231 wrote:

Could you imagine if every hatch chaser knew exactly when the best time to be on the water would be?

Yes, but then, could you imagine if you knew exactly when the best time to be on the water would be, but the rest of the anglers didn't?

And lets face it, all those idiots out there won't be willing to figure out all the correct combinations of factors for each location, and take all the needed measurements, etc. Too sciency...

There is the argument that some randomness to the way insects (or other life forms) are influenced by all the factors insures the survival of the species.

 

[stevehalupka]

ocean dwellers in particular are influenced by changes in the temperature of water and a thing called our thermocline... the moon just happens to be there when these changes in water temperature happen.