habitat work, Spring Creek

[GreenWeenie]

I understand but the way it was initially written came across as FFO excludes spinner fishermen based solely on no sound reason…but there are also other reasons, which may or may not have merit, but these aren’t factored into consideration.

As for mortality rates, where do you get the data that supports you conclusion that spinner fishermen don’t kill any more or less fish than flies? I simply have a hard time believing a Rapala lure with a leading and trailing treble hook doesn’t result in more fish mortality. Also, I can’t see how a treble hook in the mouth doesn’t cause more damage than a single hook.

As for other reasons such as FFO section creates animosity and division, well should we do away with the Republican and Democratic parties and their policies? That seems to create animosity and division among people.

As for the kid who can’t fish the stream that runs behind his house, of well. Should he not be subject to bag limits and stream closure seasons if fishing in back of his house?

I think special reg sections were designed to try and give every group of fisherman something they could call their own. I think the PFBC tried to accommodate everyone and in doing so, upset some people. I agree there isn’t a “no fly fishing” special reg designation so that could be considered “exclusionary” but sorry there are 65 miles total in the entire state designated as FFO.

Now, if we want to get into rights and stuff, what about my right to go to a trout stream and NOT have to deal with some bait/spinner ****** chucking a 1 ounce Mepps spinner over my head and at the fish I am targeting? I don’t fish ATW simply because I’ve had it happen on more than 1 occasion when I’ve been fishing a spot with no one around and some spinner guy walks up and just starts tossing his lures right over me despite the fact that there’s no one on the stream for 500 feet upstream or downstream of me. And the past two times when I’ve politely asked the spin guy to not cast to the fish I’m going after but fish the other sections of the pool, basically I get the response that I don’t own the stream or the fish and he has just as much right to try and catch it as I do. The last two times the spinner guys were actually trying to provoke a fistfight. So the solution is I simply don’t fish certain ATW anymore where I know there will be problems. Is that fair to me? No but I deal with it by not fishing there - there are plenty of other places for me to go. And getting back to the main point, I have just as much right to fish a section of stream that keeps a-holes like this off the stream and a FFO regulation does the trick.

 

[jayL]

Once, this douche fly fisherman crowded me out, and waded way out into the pool in front of me.

It was in a FFO.

True story.

 

[MattBoyer]

jayL wrote:
Once, this douche fly fisherman crowded me out, and waded way out into the pool in front of me.

It was in a FFO.

True story.

Come on! I said I was sorry! :-D

Boyer

 

[JackM]

I have no problem with small FF set asides, as long as they remain limited since they don't have a solid justification otherwise. And, as I said, I would gladly pay a small tip to maintain them.

But, that said, I do believe the set aside is already very small and reasonable overall and I do think that complaints from bait and spin anglers are a little bit of a whine because they don't like the idea that fly anglers are treated as "special" under the law. If that's the motivation, it seems kind of petty.

 

[TYoung]

I have a question. Is kayaking not allowed right now on open sections of spring creek? I have never seen any watercraft on Spring Creek. I've barely ever seen any watercraft on any stream as small as Spring creek. Do people ever see kayakers on Fishing Creek? Alot of people think that Spring Creek will be crowded with kayaks when they open up the canyon section. It seems that most of the year, a Kayak would bottom out too much to make kayaking any fun.

Trevor Young

 

[RRR]

As usual, I'm getting in on this thread a liitle late. I was just out to Spring Cr. a couple weeks ago and ventured down into the kayak stretch for the first time. It is probably some of the prettiest water on the entire creek and despite all the annoying kayak and canoe traffic I encountered, I caught plenty of nice trout from this stretch. In fact, it seemed to me there were more trout there than many of the upstream sections I fished where there is no boat traffic. When the first set of kayaks came through, I was a little upset as I was catching trout pretty regularly up to that point. I almost left, figuring that wild trout would surely not tolerate that kind of activity. However, I decided to stay and see what happened. No more was the last kayak out of sight downstream when the fish returned to rising and I resumed catching them. In fact, out of all the fish I caught from Spring in the four days I was there, one of the largest I caught was in the middle of the kayak course. What disturbed me much more than the boats on Spring was the number of trout I caught with double snell bait hooks hanging out of their mouths. I watched a couple different bait fishermen in action while I was there and I can tell you they really whack those trout. Saw one guy catching them about every other cast. I would imagine that any decent bait fisherman could catch well in excess of 100 fish a day if he so desired. No telling how many of those gut hooked fish like I caught actually survive. I actually witnessed one guy catch two large trout on consecutive casts, both of which he landed by dragging them up through some rocks into a grassy area and then taking forever to get them unhooked before throwing them through the air back into the stream. IMO the kayakers are the least of Spring Creek's problems.

 

[afishinado]

FrankTroutAngler wrote:

I'm against FFO because it excludes spinner fishermen for no sound reason, as well as for many other reasons. Hooking mortality is similar with flies and spinners.

FYI, from Doc Fritchey TU on a Maryland study of trout mortality using artificial lures equipped with treble hooks:

"The artificial lures and flies used in this study were equipped with hooks small enough to be ingested deeply even by trout of less than 200 mm. Warner (1978) noted that smaller treble hooks (size 10) were more easily ingested than single hook flies and caused significantly higher mortality. We found that treble hook equipped lures were difficult to disengage from captured trout, particularly when hooked within the mouth or in the gills. This increased the time required to unhook the trout and thus the actual handling of the fish. Nuhfer and Alexander (1989) reported that the treble hook equipped Mepps spinners used in their hooking mortality study were more difficult to unhook from anatomical sites within the mouths of wild brook trout than were single hooks. We found that single hook artificial flies were generally less difficult to unhook than treble hooks and required less handling of the trout.
The spinner type artificial lures used in this study were equipped with small treble hooks that are characteristic of the sizes used by anglers on the Savage River Tailwater. An on stream angler survey conducted by Fisheries Service personnel from March through June 1994, revealed that the average hook gape of treble hook equipped lures in use was 4.7 mm (range: 4 to 8 mm, N= 23). The size 12 and 14 treble hooks on artificial lures used in this study had hook gapes of 4 and 5 mm respectively. All but two of anglers interviewed were using a spinner type lure similar to those used in the study. Flyfisherman interviewed during the survey were using single hooked flies with an average gape of 5.1 mm (range: 3 to 8 mm, N= 36), comparable to the 3 to 7 mm hook gapes found on the single hook flies used in this study. Fisherman were also asked if they carried specific tools for hook removal. Thirty five of 36 fisherman (97%) using artificial flies carried some form of forceps for hook removal while 11 of 23 fisherman (48%) using artificial lures carried forceps or pliers.
It is clear that trout caught on treble hook equipped artificial lures in this study sustained more physical trauma than those captured on single hook flies, as evidenced by the higher incidence of bleeding fish. Over half (57.4%) of trout captured on spinners were hooked in a location other than the jaw and 27.8% were bleeding when unhooked. Only 13.6% of trout captured with flies were hooked in a location other than the jaw and only 2.5% of those were bleeding when unhooked. Mongillo (1984) concluded that salmonids hooked in a non-jaw location (gills, esophagus, tongue, or eye) were four times more likely to die regardless of hook type. Although trout captured in our study were not observed for more than about 4 to 6 hours, the relatively greater physical damage and bleeding observed among trout captured with artificial lures versus flies supports the premise that a larger proportion of trout caught on lures would experience delayed mortality."


Link to source: http://www.dftu.org/Clippings/MD_mort_study.htm



Frank, I posted this just as a point of information. The reality is, the only way to eliminate trout mortality from fishing is to ban fishing altogether! I think we (and the trout) would be better off if all types of fisherman joined ranks to improve the fisheries, instead of fighting each other because of the type of tackle and lures we prefer to use.

 

[troutbert]

The first of the crossvanes, at the upstream end, appears to be finished.

As of last night, the second crossvane, just downstream from the first, appears to be nearing completion.

Has anyone stopped to take a look?

 

[FishOn247]

GreenWeenie - I would like to see you wade the Le Tort. ( i know a few short sections you can wade and not sink to your waist)

As far as boat traffic... western rivers receive tremendous numbers of drift boats, kayaks, rafts etc and the trout get used to it, so do the fisherman.

 

[GreenWeenie]

You missed the point. The point about wading the Letort has nothing to do with actually being able to physically wade the Letort but rather trying to make a point about restrictions on certain activities as being perceived as exclusionary and/or interfering with people's rights.

Some posts seem to allude that regulations prohibiting certain activities interfere with public’s rights to use the water or natural resources however they feel like it. My point is regulations generally exist for a reason (hopefully to protect the resource) and the Letort restriction was used as an example as a regulation that is there to protect the habitat. It’s not there to be indiscriminately “exclusionary” against wading but rather to protect the spawning grounds. The goal of protecting the spawning areas through regulation vastly outweighs someone’s perceived “right” to try and wade the stream (assuming they could). That’s the point.

 

[trout17]

I have a cabin on Fishing Creek well below the Narrows, Class A wild trout open regs, and kayakers have become more prevalent over the years. I first saw one person about four years ago and the number has grown to a few dozen this year. I'm only there on weekends so the actual number may be more. Most are kids or young people cooling off and floating. Last time up I saw four young ladies while fishing behind my cabin. Not a bikini on any of them. At least on Pine Creek during the "aluminum hatch" in May the human scenery was good to look at. When I wade the pool behind my cabin, rising trout stop for 15 minutes or so, then go back to feeding. Same result from kayakers passing through.

Speaking of boats in small streams, last year on Kettle Creek, in the project water, I noticed "Boat Lauch" signs at the top and bottom parking areas. They are gone this season. Anyone know why?
Jim Kearney

 

[pcray1231]

As for mortality rates, where do you get the data that supports you conclusion that spinner fishermen don’t kill any more or less fish than flies? I simply have a hard time believing a Rapala lure with a leading and trailing treble hook doesn’t result in more fish mortality. Also, I can’t see how a treble hook in the mouth doesn’t cause more damage than a single hook.

I don't have the figures in front of me, but I have seen them. The bottom line is that fish are pretty resistant to damage around the mouth area. It's getting them in the gills that kills them easily. Treble hooks may cause damage, but they are a bit big to get to the gills, plus spinner fishermen fish very "actively" so there is rarely time for the fish to take it deep. I wouldn't be shocked at all if the mortality rate from spinners was lower than the small flies, like tricos or midges.

As for other reasons such as FFO section creates animosity and division, well should we do away with the Republican and Democratic parties and their policies?

Yes, I'm all for it.

As for the kid who can’t fish the stream that runs behind his house, of well. Should he not be subject to bag limits and stream closure seasons if fishing in back of his house?

Yeah, he should be subject to bag limits, he doesn't own the fish. Yet, the state should keep him in mind, his chances of staying involved in the sport are much greater if he can fish in his back yard.

I think special reg sections were designed to try and give every group of fisherman something they could call their own.

This is the wrong reason to have special regs. If they're needed to maintain a good fishery, so be it, but don't do it for purely political reasons.

Now, if we want to get into rights and stuff, what about my right to go to a trout stream and NOT have to deal with some bait/spinner ****** chucking a 1 ounce Mepps spinner over my head and at the fish I am targeting?

Thats not a right, thats a priveledge, and it assumes that spin fishermen are a-holes and fly fishermen aren't. It'd be the same as some idiot saying he has a right not to deal with a certain racial group.

 

[JackM]

I have waded in Letort many times. The farthest I've ever sunk is about mid-calf.

Protecting a stream here and there when absolutely required is one thing; suggesting that a fraction of a percentage of the public should have their druthers over all other segments in regard to use of a public resource is another.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

the most i ever sunk in was about 3 inches above my waist. Took a few people to help me out of the muck. I was only 1 foot out in the stream also. First and Last time i ever waded the Letort.