Coming soon to a creek near you!

[jeff]

FYI............. Found this on the internet while doing some research on new areas to fish. This list is just for the Susquehanna watershed. The amount of water they are pumping out of our local streams for drilling is staggering and will only increase as the drilling does. Hmmmm.... A major drought with already low water conditions + Gas companies pilaging our water = Not enough water/High water temps. Great for our trout huh! :roll:

http://www.srbc.net/downloads/ApprovedSourceList.pdf

 

[afishinado]

Here's a great article from F&B magazine by John Arway the ED of the F&B commish:

http://fishandboat.com/anglerboater/2011ab/vol80num1_janfeb/01straight.pdf


Eye opening!

Great quote in the margin of the article:

"The law locks up the man or woman, who steals the goose off the commons; but the greater villain the law lets loose, who steals the commons from the goose."

 

[troutbert]

jeff wrote:
FYI............. Found this on the internet while doing some research on new areas to fish. This list is just for the Susquehanna watershed. The amount of water they are pumping out of our local streams for drilling is staggering and will only increase as the drilling does. Hmmmm.... A major drought with already low water conditions + Gas companies pilaging our water = Not enough water/High water temps. Great for our trout huh! :roll:

http://www.srbc.net/downloads/ApprovedSourceList.pdf

Near the top of the page, under Andarko, you see Bellefonte Borough. That would be Big Spring water, i.e. less volume of cold water for lower Spring Creek, and Bald Eagle Creek below the confluence.

But it doesn't list a volume for that withdrawal. Does anyone know how to find the numbers for that withdrawal?

 

[ratgunner]

Well thats not good news.

 

[jeff]

If you look at the list you will see a number followed by mgd. I think that means millions of gallons per day. So .250 mgd would read 250 thousand gallons. If you really look at the list some water sources are listed more than once with multiple companies each getting their own allotment. Look a little closer and you will see that they take out of Big Fishing Creek, Fishing Creek, Pine Creek, and Bald Eagle to name a few!
As for the Bellefonte water withdrawal I couldn't tell you other than call em.

 

[tomgamber]

That amount is what they are "permitted" to take...they my be taking less or they may be taking more. I think it would be interesting if someone had the time to do that math on what the withdraw of a permitted amount would look like compared to the flows listed on the USGS page.

While this is a little rough and extreme...I noticed 5 permitted withdraws from Moshannon creek of 1.44mgd...multiply that by 360 days and and multiply that by the 5 different withdraws and you have over 2.5 BILLION gallons of water being withdrawn.

I don't know what that means in terms of impact on the flows. Two years ago, maybe not much...last year it could be significant...I don;t know. But I would be interested in a trained persons opinion.

 

[franklin]

tomgamber wrote:
That amount is what they are "permitted" to take...they my be taking less or they may be taking more. I think it would be interesting if someone had the time to do that math on what the withdraw of a permitted amount would look like compared to the flows listed on the USGS page.

While this is a little rough and extreme...I noticed 5 permitted withdraws from Moshannon creek of 1.44mgd...multiply that by 360 days and and multiply that by the 5 different withdraws and you have over 2.5 BILLION gallons of water being withdrawn.

I don't know what that means in terms of impact on the flows. Two years ago, maybe not much...last year it could be significant...I don;t know. But I would be interested in a trained persons opinion.

I don't see a gauge listed for Moshanon but there is for Bald Eagle. The flow today is a bit over 300 cubic feet per second.

If we calculate 300 cfs x 60 seconds per minute x 60 minutes per hour x 24 hours per day x 7.48 gallons per cubic foot = 193,881,600 gallons per day.

It's better to use a per day rate then you can look at the stream flow history and see how it compares to low flow rates in low rainfall months. What the permits should include is a minimum flow rate at which the withdraw is allowed. If the flow is less they should reduce or eliminate the daily allotment for that day.

 

[pcray1231]

It's better to use a per day rate then you can look at the stream flow history and see how it compares to low flow rates in low rainfall months. What the permits should include is a minimum flow rate at which the withdraw is allowed. If the flow is less they should reduce or eliminate the daily allotment for that day.

Agree 100%.

 

[reds]

I believe withdraws are based on the ten year low flow and they permit ten percent of what that is. I may be mistaken as it has been a while since I have seen any updates on this. That is for the srbc, but I believe the dep is basing permits for withdraws in the allegheny watershed the same way.

 

[reds]

I meant seven year low flow.

 

[osprey]

John Arway is da man!!!! Great info there Jeff , the best part of that whole thing is ............1721 North Front St.
Harrisburg , PA
1 pt. Saltpeter
1 pt. Sugar
Anyone wanna ride along PM me. Beautiful view of the river from there.

 

[bikerfish]

funny story, a guy that works with me at times, a dyed in the wool right winger, drill baby drill and all that. seems a gas company wants to suck water out of a little stream near his house for fracking a well, which I've fished and holds a nice population of brookies and brownies. all of a sudden he sees the reality of the situation. I guess it's another case of "not in my backyard!"
I told him the dried up stream will be the least of his worries if his well gets funked from the drilling.
I couldn't believe how upset he was about this!! he didn't like it when I told him it's only getting started.

 

[jeff]

reds wrote:
I believe withdraws are based on the ten year low flow and they permit ten percent of what that is. I may be mistaken as it has been a while since I have seen any updates on this. That is for the srbc, but I believe the dep is basing permits for withdraws in the allegheny watershed the same way.

reds I sat through a presentation from TU's MS guy a couple of weeks ago. If I am not mistaken the Allegheny watershed has absolutely no restrictions on from what water source they draw from. They can just stop by any stream or river and fill er up and come back for more. The srbc at least has limits and certain locations you can draw from.

 

[franklin]

I've tried to verify that no permits are needed west of the Susquehanna watershed. I have not found any info that permits are needed so assume that is true. What is required is that any water removals are required to be recorded and submitted to the state.

This is a gap that the state should close.

 

[reds]

my understanding is that a water management plan is required by the dep in the ohio river watershed. it is a muddy issue, in part due to the ADP lawsuit, but i believe for the water management plan to be approved by DEP withdrawals are limited to the 10 percent of seven year low flow rule. It does need adressed better, but the govt is slow to respond to these things.