Big Spring Rainbows being killed

Time of the year in regards to spawning is not definitive on genetics. At least not genetics that have adapted or are generations deep in a stream. They will spawn when it gives the young the best chance for survival determined by many factors of the stream.
If even one native strain spawned with another strain in all likelyhood over time all the trout will share some genetic variation.
I agree with Squatch. Why glorify the brookie if they are no more than stockie genetics. Another example of tampering gone wrong. But like FirandFeather said the improvement is for the stream and which ever benfits brook or bow We'll see.
Personally, I love Brookies. But there are alot of great brookie streams. How many streams in Pa produce wild bows? I don't believe there are many. I wouldn't be disappointed either way. If the Brookies do well or the Bows. Either way Big Springs will remain a great stream capable of producing large trout. When is enough enough when it comes to our tampering with this stream.
I got an idea. Open the hatchery, plant some trees along the runway. Place the brookies and the bows in seperate pens.
 
Yeah FI. I mean, the history is there and I respect the history. I guess I just have a hard time seeing the bows as some kind of invasive species in BS if the heritage strain of the brookies isn't there anymore. There are a lot of people who treat those 'bows like one of the seven plagues. It's a unique fishery, brookie or bows. Mistakes may have been made in the past concerning management of the native species, but you can't go back and fix that now.
 
Just like the Letort, the originals were brook trout like evry other stream in pa just about, but you don't really see people wanting to remove the browns ? They've adapted better and was able to give us a wonderful fishery, however I can understand wanting to make it like " the good ol'days" but can we be certain that the brooks would boom w/out the bows? How many other streams in pa have wild bows and brooks that we can somewhat learn from? Has this been done before and it was successful? Well, to my knowledge I'm not to aware of to many streams that have both wild brook and rainbows, but hopefully this will be resolved in the future
 
Personally, I love Brookies. But there are alot of great brookie streams. How many streams in Pa produce wild bows?
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Overall, a couple of dozen known wild bow streams statewide, and several thousand brookie streams.

That said, this is a decent sized classic limestoner. Brookies in this particular environment are rarer than bows in the same environment. IMO, the "uniqueness" argument favors brookies, not bows. Brookies in BS and brookies in "Headwater Freestone Run" just are not at all comparable. We may enjoy one type of experience over another, and that's up to us, but they AREN'T the same experience. Size, behavior, approach to fishing, etc. are all very different.

I'd think it would be cool to find they are heritage strain or mostly heritage strain. Also, the scientist in me finds that question interesting. But our knowledge of brook trout strains is poor enough that it's hard to justify management decisions on it. We don't discriminate between "strains" of a species, just a species.

That said, I don't really fish BS much, and defer to those who are more familiar, and affected than I am. If it's a case where the brookie population is about as strong as it can get, then to me there's no reason to exclude the bows.
 
The source of this possibly comes from PA Outdoor News. I could swear I read in the Q & A part that stated the PFBC was asking anglers to throw browns and bows on the bank to help the brookies, and then asked like 6 anglers their feelings on it. The question didnt read hypothetical at all and sure sounded like they were already advising it.
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I checked and it does say the PFBC is in fact asking anglers to do this. I think it actually said to harvest them though.
So now I wonder. Is this a misprint?
Most likely but I dont know for sure and the timing of the bows getting thrown to the bank and this issue from mid sept. is pretty remarkable.
 
Squaretail wrote:
The source of this possibly comes from PA Outdoor News. I could swear I read in the Q & A part that stated the PFBC was asking anglers to throw browns and bows on the bank to help the brookies, and then asked like 6 anglers their feelings on it. The question didnt read hypothetical at all and sure sounded like they were already advising it.
Click to expand...

I checked and it does say the PFBC is in fact asking anglers to do this. I think it actually said to harvest them though.
So now I wonder. Is this a misprint?
Most likely but I dont know for sure and the timing of the bows getting thrown to the bank and this issue from mid sept. is pretty remarkable.
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Is this article available online, and can you provide a link?

Also, I hope everyone keeps in mind that just because an article says the PFBC is asking anglers to do this, does not mean that the PFBC is asking anglers to do this.
 
I'll scan and post the article shortly (it's brief).
EDIT: My scan resolution isn't good enough to post. Anyway, I believe Squaretail may be referring to a section in Pa Outdoor News, this would be the Sept 13th issue on Page 4, titled "Sounding Board" where it reads:

"QUESTION: The PFBC is asking anglers to protect native brook trout on Big Spring Creek by harvesting brown and rainbow trout. Do you support this selective-harvest approach to fisheries management?"


There follows six replies by readers with basic views of the situation. Some are in favor of removing bows and some aren't. None of the responses suggest that the folks replying are going to go there themselves and remove fish. I do agree that the original question is rather poorly worded and implies that the agency is encouraging harvest of bows......when in fact this was merely proposed and was never adopted as new policy.
 
Wow that is alarming..... The wording allows one to conclude that the PFBC is "asking" anglers to harvest browns and bows. Not a good recipe for public education. Time for the PFBC to hang some signage to inform anglers not to Kill any fish species in the stream.

And really it was a bad idea all along for the PFBC to allude to this select harvest idea during the BS management meeting this past spring. IMO, asking anglers to manage a delicate fishery like BS would only lead to issues like poaching since seeing fish being harvested could become complacent which could lead to harvesting of brooks.

Conversely, (time for my hypothetical tangent) installing a fish barrier would be the easiest and cheapest way to segregate the bow and brooks. The barrier could simply consist of a low head weir that would need to successfully do two things: 1) obstruct fish passage and 2) it would need to be low maintenance (i.e. no cleaning compared to a fence or the alike). The weir would have to create just enough of an upstream pool (reportedly the favored habitat for the brooks) so the bow/browns could not jump the weir. Also the weir can be natural looking maybe a huge piece (s) of limestone that creates a waterfall effect.

The only issue is that the stretch that would need to be impounded would be the stretch with the most stream slope as to reduce the amount of necessary impounding. For example a run/riffle. Also, what private property owner wants to lose property due to an impoundment, but maybe a land acquisition could be accomplished. I know, its farfetched, but just some of my thoughts considering a sh*t ton of money is being thrown at BS and the current approach is let’s do some things (i.e. the stream work) that suggests "We'll See" if it works out or do something that is can be explained and supported. But I digress, any work that provides optimal habitat for repro is good work in my book. I'd just like more of an opputinity to catch a brookie in a sping creek - you can't get any more special than that in this state.
 
Fishidiot wrote:
I'll scan and post the article shortly (it's brief).
EDIT: My scan resolution isn't good enough to post. Anyway, I believe Squaretail may be referring to a section in Pa Outdoor News, this would be the Sept 13th issue on Page 4, titled "Sounding Board" where it reads:

"QUESTION: The PFBC is asking anglers to protect native brook trout on Big Spring Creek by harvesting brown and rainbow trout. Do you support this selective-harvest approach to fisheries management?"


There follows six replies by readers with basic views of the situation. Some are in favor of removing bows and some aren't. None of the responses suggest that the folks replying are going to go there themselves and remove fish. I do agree that the original question is rather poorly worded and implies that the agency is encouraging harvest of bows......when in fact this was merely proposed and was never adopted as new policy.
Click to expand...

I agree completely with your view. Very poorly worded. So what was written in the publication misrepresents the actual situation. The PFBC did not ask anglers to harvest bows.

So, is this whole thing just a misunderstanding as a result of this article?

Or, is there some actual evidence, i.e. eyewitness accounts that someone has been banking fish?

 
I cannot understand why a self sustaining rainbow trout fishery is such a bad thing? Who cares if brookies were the original fish to inhabit that stream. There are very few streams in this state that can support rainbow trout reproduction and I for one think it is great to have them there as well as in FSB.
 
CLS,

IMO there's nothing wrong with the rainbows, they're there doing their thing and they are successful. My personal interest is that there is only one spring creek in the "world" that is successfully producing Brook Trout (for recreation) and that's Big Spring Creek, which provides about 300 yards of Brook Trout Habitat. Which is unique and amazing! There are a few streams in the CV and up north that have sustaining populations of wild bows (e.g. LJ, FSB) and considering the decline of Natural Brook Trout Habitat in the eastern US, BS is truly an amazing place.
 
Bull sharks in a spring creek as part of the rainbow's angler reduction program.
 
CLSports wrote:
I cannot understand why a self sustaining rainbow trout fishery is such a bad thing?
Click to expand...

I agree. But what is being proposed is not eliminating the rainbow fishery.

What is being proposed is a brookie management zone for a short distance down from the spring.

The regs area is 1.1 miles long. The total stream is much longer, maybe 6 miles or so?

Why not a few hundred yards for a brookie management zone?

At the same time taking steps to extend the wild trout (rainbows and browns) way on down the creek.

There is no reason why the stream could not support a Class A wild trout population clear to the mouth. It's a limestone spring creek. And the pollution problem that was limiting trout populations is now gone.
 
Yeah, that sounds reasonable to me. I guess I was just a bit ignorant on the whole story here. I support that idea for sure.
 
This is Eric Levis, the press secretary for the Fish and Boat Commission. I’d like to clarify this issue so anglers are fully aware of the current regulations. The PFBC manages Big Spring Creek in Cumberland County as a wild brook, brown, and rainbow trout fishery with Catch-and-Release Fly Fishing Only regulations from its source 1.52 river-miles downstream to the Nealy Road Bridge. These regulations allow for year-round angling with fly-fishing tackle. It is a catch-and-release area so no trout of any species - brook, brown or rainbow - may be harvested. The 2012 Fishery Management Plan for Big Spring Creek details future fishery and habitat management options. Included in those options is a Miscellaneous Special Regulation that would continue to restrict gear to fly fishing tackle only and catch-and-release of brook trout year-round upstream from the Nealy Road Bridge, but permit harvest of rainbow and brown trout. However, this option has not been adopted by the board of commissioners and the current regulations have not changed. It is currently illegal to harvest trout of any species from Big Spring Creek upstream from the Nealy Road Bridge. You can read the fishery management report at: http://fishandboat.com/water/streams/bigspring/BigSpringMgmtPlan.pdf. Please consult the 2013 Fishing Summary book (http://fishandboat.com/fishpub/summaryad/z2013complete.pdf) for current fishing and boating regulations.
 
Thank you for your post Eric.
 
+1 Thank you for taking the time to post an explanation of the PFBC policies and regulations on Big Spring, Eric.


From the link:
"...the PFBC Board of Commissioners will consider Miscellaneous Special Regulations for Big Spring Creek, sections 01 and 02. If adopted, this regulation will take effect beginning January 2014 and will restrict gear to fly-fishing tackle only and catch-and-release of brook trout, but permit harvest of five rainbow and brown trout per day greater than or equal to seven inches."


Eric,

I'd would like to give my opinion on this proposed regulation. I believe it is a terrible idea. If the goal to achieve a (predominantly) brook trout fishery in the upper section of Big Spring, the only way to do so effectively would be to install a fish barrier at some point below "the ditch", electro shock the fish and move the captured rainbows and brown trout to the water below the barrier.

I have no doubt, allowing harvest of rainbow and browns would create a circus atmosphere on the stream. Given the demonstrated ability of Big Spring to produce and sustain a huge population of rainbow trout, the stream would essentially become a maintenance-free hatchery; a place for catch-and-keep anglers to fill their stringers year round, rather than a haven for brook trout.

My preference right now would be to stay the course and evaluate the brook trout population in the upper section before doing anything. If the brook trout population is not making enough progress to achieve the seven year target level in the next year or two, than a plan to shock and move fish should be developed.

Thanks.


 
+1 on what afish just said. If people think BS is a circus now, wait untill harvest of rainbows is allowed. I think it should be left alone or remove the rainbows from the ditch only. Also, a question; Are there any browns left in BS? I have not seen any in a long time, at least not in the C&R section.
 
I also agree with Afish. First off, nobody currently owning a fly rod will want to harvest trout from Big Spring and the one who would don't own fly rods yet. So they will get them and froth away at the big bows.

This screams of the desire for the Commish to encourage harvest of wild trout.

If you want to remove the bows and browns, electroshock them and move them below Neely Rd, install afish barrier there and allow the bait guys to have at them. Ruining the atmosphere of the FFO water through harvest would be preposterous.

 
What about 24 months of harvesting brown and rainbows?
Not just encouragement, but require it. Then let it alone. You've done all you could. Throwing them on the bank is a waste. Harvest for eating pleasure is not.
 
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