All central PA streams doomed?

[troutbert]

Regarding this study by Bucknell. Keep in mind that they only studied the ridge-and-valley region of PA, not other regions of the state.

They did not study the Allegheny Plateau (AP) region at all. The Allegheny Plateau is about 2/3 of the state of PA. And the great majority of public forest lands in PA are in the AP.

The mileage of acid rain impacted streams on the Allegheny Plateau is many, many times larger than that found in the ridge-and-valley.

The acid precip issues on the Allegheny Plateau have been extensively studied by others, but were not part of the Bucknell study.

 

[RLeeP]

>>The acid rain issue is one thing I haven't thought about for a long time. I know its an issue, and has been worse than it is now, but I don't pay much attention to it. It has always seemed that acid mine drainage was the real problem acid related problem for PA streams. >>

It isn't always an either/or between the two causes of acidification and the problems they pose for Pennsylvania streams. Quite a few of the AMD discharges, especially around the edges of the historic bituminous regions of the state, are more aptly described as seeps. They are low volume and may only impact the receiving stream during high flow periods. So, they can be present in streams that still fish fairly well and appear relatively healthy because their effects are buffered out in an otherwise AMD-free watershed. But chronic acid deposition from rainfall can deplete the thin lifeline of buffering capacity in these streams and push them over the edge into full acidification.

So, in some PA streams, the effects of the two sources are additive. The streams can handle (and at least remain somewhat viable) either limited AMD seeps or low Ph rainfall, but not both. I think if you look along the edges of the old coal region, you'll see a number of streams where this is or has been the case. One that comes to mind (and where the remaining AMD has been eliminated and the stream has rebounded some) is the Coon Creek watershed in the lower Tionesta drainage. But I would imagine you could find quite a few more if you drew an arcing line from Tionesta/Leeper east to say, Lock Haven and took a look at the streams that cross this line flowing north.

 

[k-bob]

for the map inclined, can get simple pa bedrock layer for google earth here

http://tin.er.usgs.gov/geology/state/state.php?state=PA

 

[Chaz]

All good stuff, thanks everyone.

 

[jifigz]

Acid rain is a problem and will continue to be a problem. After all, all of those native brook trout lakes spread throughout the Adirondacks have been hurt very badly by acid rain and invasive species. Pike, bass, and perch are all major concerns in overshadowing the brook trout there. Is it bad? Yes and no. If the water is too acidic for brook trout anyway there might as well be some fish in there. I love them all. I do wish that things would stay "undamaged" and "unchanged" but we all like cars, electricity, and what not and it is going to be nearly impossible to balance it all with the ever growing human population.

 

[jifigz]

Do we have an idea of how detrimental these snails will be? People generally assume much worse than things typically are. And let us not forget, nearly all fish that we love to catch and nearly every place we catch them in are "invasive species." The smallmouths, walleye, musky, channel cats, and carp I love to catch out of the Juniata SHOULD NOT be there, but I am glad that they are. The rainbows and browns here shouldn't be here, but I am glad that they are. After all, human progress has tainted all of our streams that used to abound with Brook Trout. They could be found in nearly all waters of our state, but now we ruined it for them, so why not let invasive brown trout take their place?

Invasive species will never stop spreading with how gloablized and connected our world is today. Some species will outcompete others and "take their place." This has been the evolution of the world since it began.

 

[troutbert]

The concern about the snails is not that they are non-native.

It has to do with their effects in the stream. Some of the articles linked describe that.

 

[rrt]

Maybe not doomed, but I imagine the snails will be spread from stream to stream rather quickly and will have a deleterious effect anywhere they pop up. I can see them negatively influencing a wide range of streams throughout central PA. So sad.

 

[jifigz]

troutbert wrote:
The concern about the snails is not that they are non-native.

It has to do with their effects in the stream. Some of the articles linked describe that.

I understand this. I tried to post both of my posts as one, but they accidentally got cut off (I was trying to clean up cream soda off of the keyboard and it posted, lol). I don't think that their is much we can do to stop invasive species. They will find a way into new streams carried by people or other animals. That is inevitable. I am saying that generally people blow how much impact these critters will really have on a certain environment out of proportion and when we choose to spread an invasive species because we see it as "desirable" for some reason it is okay.

 

[troutbert]

Here's the PFBC statement on the mudsnails.
---------------------------------------------------------------
New Zealand mudsnails are small, measuring less than one-quarter inch, with a long, narrow, coiled shell with deep grooves. Like other aquatic invasive species, they disrupt ecosystems by rapidly multiplying and competing with native species for space and food.

“Based on studies conducted in western U.S. streams, if the population grows quickly, they could become the dominant organisms in the benthic – or bottom dwelling – community, upon which many others species depend for food,” said Bob Morgan, the PFBC’s ecologist who studies aquatic invasive species. “Because this is the first known occurrence of the New Zealand mudsnail on the Atlantic slope of the eastern U.S, the effects of the snail on higher organisms, such as fish, are not certain at this time.”
-------------------------------------------------------------

There is certainly no prediction of "doom" there.

Do yinz think that the statement blows things out of proportion?

I don't. I think it's a reasonable statement regarding the mud snails.

 

[Chaz]

jdaddy wrote:

Sylvaneous wrote:
Yes, but acid rain is way down from what it was.

Boy, as Afishinado points out, there is a blast from the past. Acid rain. A "problem" that was hyped beyond reason as evidenced by the fact that it was "solved" years and billions of dollars ahead of time.

Bad news here is that snails are very sensitive to acidity so reduction of acidity has increased their ability to survive and thrive. Catch 22 imo.

Way down is not 3.7 ph to 4.4 ph, at 4.4 it is still lethal to nearly everything in the streams it impacts. What are the streams it impacts? Every freestone stream in PA, of which there are thousands
And BTW coal fired power plants are not closing, but they do have to upgrade the treatment of what comes out of the stacks if the plant is repaired or upgraded.

 

[pcray1231]

And BTW coal fired power plants are not closing.

Umm, lots of them are indeed closing.

In the last two years, approximately 40 plants have already retired, and an additional 330 plants are expected to retire by 2016.

This includes 6 in PA and 12 in Ohio.

The ones shutting down were planned to close by 2025 anyway, the new regs merely accelerated the process. Doesn't make much sense to do expensive upgrades to a plant that's gonna close within a decade.

I'm not claiming this to be a bad thing. Worldwide, coal remains the fastest growing source of electricity generation there is. But not so in the U.S. Gas is largely displacing it. And that's a good thing. (my sincere sympathies to the coal workers out there).

 

[k-bob]

right our acid rain is on the wane. not defending anything of course, but PA has had both acidic rain and BT introduced w. human intervention.

in some cases acidic rain + slightly more alkaline geology = brook trout in waters too acidic for browns. in many other cases, the water is too acidic even for ST. it's about rain and rocks, among other things of course.

(map: blue line is class a brookies, Juniata geology is higher alkaline than Tuscarora. ... there are ST streams with good pH even in areas where many streams are too acidic for trout...)

again I am not defending acid rain, just looking @ where to fish, or not...

 

[rrt]

If mud snails don't get them or didymo doesn't invade them, the flushes of liquid manure that permeate them will eventually get them. I fear that they are doomed.

 

[Chaz]

pcray1231 wrote:

And BTW coal fired power plants are not closing.

Umm, lots of them are indeed closing.

In the last two years, approximately 40 plants have already retired, and an additional 330 plants are expected to retire by 2016.

This includes 6 in PA and 12 in Ohio.

The ones shutting down were planned to close by 2025 anyway, the new regs merely accelerated the process. Doesn't make much sense to do expensive upgrades to a plant that's gonna close within a decade.

I'm not claiming this to be a bad thing. Worldwide, coal remains the fastest growing source of electricity generation there is. But not so in the U.S. Gas is largely displacing it. And that's a good thing. (my sincere sympathies to the coal workers out there).

Ok, up until 2 years ago they weren't closing, I'm glad they finally are closing some, but there are many that were grandfathered that caused the problem, that probably are closing, it's a good thing, because the ones that were grandfathered, were the worst offenders.