question for discussion

[ryguyfi]

All things equal, on a typical 9' 5wt rod, does a 6wt line "cast better"? So is it easier for an average caster to below average to cast a 6wt line due to it being heavier? This includes both long and short casts.

I'll "throw" my opinion in after a bit of discussion.

 

[krayfish]

Got my nephew a Sage Fli 9' 4 weight for Christmas. I also had a reel and spare spool for him. One spool w/ 4wt and one w/ 5wt line. We went into the yard and tried both. We both found the 5 weight line easier to cast and it made it possible to "feel" where the line is and feel the rod loading. He's been fly fishing for a little over a year and is a pretty good caster. I'm starting my 31st year of fly fishing and consider myself to be a fairly advanced caster. There....you got 2 for 1 in this response.

I think in the search for speed, many rods now are being rated with 30-40' of line out. If you are casting 20', overlining the rod will probably make it more user friendly. It's almost like you buy a rod labeled for a 5 weight line but it's probably closer to a 6 weight. In turn, the line companies have stepped up their tapers making them head heavier.

Called TFO prior to buying my Axiom and spoke to tech dept. I specifically asked about overlining that model. I was told that its a mmisconception by entry level casters. So.... I got the 7 weight , a streamer tip 7wt type 4 and one in type 6. It casts / shoots line fine but not great distance. I can't feel the line on the backcast and almost have to watch it. I then put a bass taper floating line on and cast the entire line. I was able to feel the rod load. Now I'm baffled if it's that I'm not accustomed to casting a sink tip or if the head heavy bass taper loaded the rod better. TFO is willing to trade me a 6 weight for the 7 weight. I took the 7 weight sink tip and put it on a Sage RPL+ 6 weight and launched it. I'm thinking I will swap the 7 for the 6. Any thoughts?

 

[GenCon]

Well interesting question. First off I think it depends on the rod. I know you said typical. But is it fast or moderate action? I think for a beginner with a fast action rod. It maybe a bit easier to cast. They would be able to feel the rod load. Therefore helping with learning timing between forward and back cast. But that being said. I have never been a fan of over lining a rod. But back to your question. Again like I said. It may help some feel the rod. Help develope confidence with their casting. I could go on all day here but would knowing my nature. I would probably continue to stray from the question.

GenCon

 

[greenlander]

Entirely dependent on the rod, the caster and the application and thus no one answer.

Take a rod most people would call fast as an example. Often you'll have folks recommend that you overline these rods, i.e. put a 6wt line on a 5wt rod.

Is the rod really rated incorrectly or overly stiff for its line class? Or are people buying the wrong rod for the job? If you buy a Sage METHOD because it's the hot new thing and because real men buy fast rods, and you spend most of your time fishing small eastern streams, well you better believe that you'll need to overline that rod to make it work. But, if you're casting a 9wt METHOD in the salt and casting over 60 feet most of the time, will you need to spool up a 10 wt line? Probably not.

That's just one example, and it isn't to suggest that some rods don't cast better overlined, it's just to point out that there are too many variables involved for there to be a single answer.

 

[krayfish]

GL,

Do you feel (as a general rule) most companies mod-fast and fast 5 weight rods almost always are closer to a 6 weight? At least over the last couple of years.

I fish with a guy that has a little over a year experience under his belt. Decent caster but more of a gentle / guiding type of stroke. Wife got him "any rod you choose" for his b-day. Due to magazine articles and guy in shop, he wanted a Helios 2 tip flex. I told him from what I could see, the mid flex would be a better fit. He got the tip flex and after an hour, "Here, you use it. I can't cast this thing". He told me to keep it. I refused, told him to contact Orvis. They traded a mid flex for it, put Rio gold on it and now it's his favorite rod.

Maybe I still think of the older gear but some of the faster stuff on the market feels dead with the line listed on the blank. Once you up-line, the rod comes alive.

 

[sniperfreak223]

^heavier lines do tend to slow the action a bit, but just keep in mind that fast action rods generally require a more aggressive casting stroke, and even experienced casters may have trouble with them when they learned on medium-action rods, it took me forever to get used to fast-action rods when I got into the warmwater game.

 

[dryflyguy]

I fish a 3 weight line on my 2 weight rod. And a 5 weight line on my 4 weight.
But have never tried a 6 weight line on my 9' 5 weight. Reason being is that rod is used on large streams, where I'm making mostly long casts. And the rod feels quite comfortable with it's rated line in those situations. IMO

 

[albatross]

If the rod is properly rated (and that's another debate), then a heavier line should feel better for short casts as it will load the rod better. For long casts the heavier line should overload the rod (again, if properly rated).

 

[Stenonema]

My opinion for question number one, is No. All things being equal over lining does not improve the rod or it's ability to cast.
Question 2, Yes on the short cast and No on the Long cast. I am going to guess on the average to below average caster doesn't cast more than 35 feet of fly line. For simplicity we are not talking about roll casting. A good caster can adjust his timing very quickly for any fly rod fast or slow. Perhaps over lining may enable some rods to respond more favorable to some casters. Timing is always an issue no matter the skill level. The faster rods are more forgiving than slower action rods. The window for timing is narrow but it favors the back and forth no timing stroke of a lot of beginners much the same way a flat shooting bow is easier to shoot. A slow action rod requires more precise timing to energize longer casts. Poor timing on softer rods results in a collapsed or under powered cast on a longer cast. A faster,stiffer rod will still have the gas to energize line on late timing. Just My opinion. I'm aware not all people will agree. I have taught a fair number of beginning casters and most people, not all, start with the back and forth casting motion without a definitive stop or pause.

 

[bikerfish]

funny, market sells fast, faster, fastest rods, people say they need fastest available to fish 30 ft creek, then say rod feels dead with rated line, overlining to compensate for dead rod action, essentially slowing down the action and allowing the rod to actually flex.
HMMMM, maybe buy a rod that better fits the way you cast and fish instead of falling for all the marketing and internet BS??

 

[whheff]

I built a Steffen Brother glass rod last year. It is rated as a 4/5wt. On their web site they say that their rods will cast short distances better with a 5wt line and with a 4wt line it will feel faster and cast better distances than with the 5wt.
Now this is a glass rod that has an action almost as slow as bamboo so that may make a difference. For a new fly fisherman, they will feel the rod load better with the heavier line.
Bikerfish said it best, that you should find a rod that fits your casting style.
Just my 2 cents.
Bill

 

[DavidFin]

I agree mostly with Greenlander that there are too many variables to consider for one answer. However, I think the one commonality of overlining is the fact that people are trying to solve a problem with a quick fix. Granted, a person like myself has no money and it's easier to pay for a new line than a new rod, but I suspect most of these inquiries could be redirected to different equipment altogether.

Again, it's expensive and the amount of gear out there is daunting, but if you have a day, maybe spend it at a shop you can demo stuff at. Also check out a shop that has consignment rods available, like The Sporting Gentleman.

 

[krayfish]

Below are several links to this topic that contradict Stenomas position. Most seem to be in agreement that slower action rods are better for the novice or beginner. I agree because it allows them to feel where the line is and teaches them how to time their cast.

http://www.redington.com/fly-fishing/rod-actions/

http://www.flyfishinggear.info/buyers_guide/old/fly_rods_fast_action.htm

http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/fly-cast/8815-fast-
action-rod.html

As I mentioned before, rod companies sell you a 5 weight and then tell you it's designed to cast a SA GPX or a RiO Grand. Both are 5.5-6 lines in grain weight but the boxes are marked "WF5F". So, it you load it with RIO LT DT5F, it may not be much of a pleasure to cast. I'm assuming that people know this going into the purchase.

I'll go back to my specific situation where I put a 7 weight, 15' type 6 sink tip (not exactly light) on the 9' 7 weight I just bought. The construction of the line means that it's a pick up and shoot type of fishing. Without being able to have much line in the air, it was difficult to feel anything with the rod. By changing the line to a floating bass taper, I was able to have more line in the air, feel where the line was, feel the rod flex and resulted in throwing it into the backing. Can't say that I've done that too often over 30+ years. I made the rod and line purchase based on a discussion with the rod company. I can take that same sinking line, put it on a 20 year old Sage 6 weight and throw it twice as far. To me, that makes no sense and the 6 weight didn't feel like it was overlined in the slightest. I trying to figure out if the rod is overly stiff (which I think it is for shorter casts) or if it's my personal preference to have a little more feel of the rod loading.

 

[Stenonema]

Over the summer I attended the casting competition in Carlisle. A Cumberland county guide who didn't enter the contest and I were chatting afterwards. He asked me who had won and I told him. He said; " Who does he want to be ? ". I mentioned he is a great guy and caster and quoted Lefty that being able to cast far can't hurt. Before I left the guide he was sure to show me his new Helios 2. I wondered to myself. What does he need all that rod for. I think there is a small percentage of fly fisherman that actually get into the third gear of these high performance rods today.
The Sage Circa and the fiberglass offerings are refreshing. I enjoy trying to stretch the limits of my casting and pushing to try to get that extra five feet. However the soul of a softer rod is immeasurable.

Bikerfish said it really well however to maximize the benefits of any rod is up to the caster. Spend the time with an instructor, read a book and practice in the yard are all things that will do more than anything else to improve the performance of any rod.

 

[pcray1231]

My opinion only.

1. Yes, for TRUE beginners. I'm talking like the first couple of times they're picking up a fly rod, just trying to get a fly out far enough.

Generally because true beginners aren't casting very far, often not near the amount of line the rod is rated for. Hence, a heavier line will load the rod more properly, as well as allow the caster to feel the weight and understand the timing.

2. In short order, though, I think it reverts to properly weighting the rod. That said, again, it depends on what type of fishing they do. I think the standard for properly weighting is 30 ft of fly line beyond the tip, meaning with leader and rod length, that's fishing 40+ ft away!

Personally, in PA for sure, and perhaps most places for trout, I think that's an unusually long distance even for experts. i.e. by matching the rod rating with the line rating, most of us are actually underweighting the rod, more severely the shorter the distance. And the trend of under-rating heavier rods just compounds the effect.

This is all because when we test a rod we like to bomb casts out there, and the one that bombs a cast the best, we like the most. It's just stupid because we don't actually fish at that distance. But they sell what we buy. So if they label a 6 wt a 5wt, we put a 5 wt line on it and compare it against actual 5 wts. And guess what, it feels the best at long distance! We like it and buy it. Then the competitors catch on and do the same....

By now, our 5 wts are what old timers called 8 wts, lol. And if we stick a 5 wt line on there we can cast the whole dang line and congratulate ourselves on how good we are. Nevermind that we can't cast accurately at 15 ft, where most of the fishing is done!

So, to summarize. After only a few outings when they get the basics down, I think beginners, like the rest of us, would do best with a properly loaded rod. But marketing is such that most of us, even veterans, are underlining and could use to overline a little.

 

[greenlander]

krayfish wrote:
GL,

Do you feel (as a general rule) most companies mod-fast and fast 5 weight rods almost always are closer to a 6 weight? At least over the last couple of years.

...

Maybe I still think of the older gear but some of the faster stuff on the market feels dead with the line listed on the blank. Once you up-line, the rod comes alive.

Short answer: I don't know. But I understand what you're getting at, and I've wondered the same thing myself.

My instinct is to blame rod manufacturers and say they keep making rods faster and faster because -- at some point and for some unknown reason -- fast became cool. And to do so, they're ignoring weight class and letting the lines blur.

But, when I'm more thoughtful about it, I wonder -- as I mentioned earlier in the thread -- whether most people are just buying the wrong rod for the job and then blaming the rod manufacturers.

Using Sage as an example, does the METHOD belong on Spruce Creek or the Little Lehigh? Absolutely not. Does the ONE even belong on those streams? Probably not. But, if that's what you want to fish on typical PA-sized streams, then you're going to want to overline it to keep it from fishing like crap.

I'm not a rod designer or a line designer or even a particularly good fisherman, but common sense seems to dictate that casting distance and thus how much line you're carrying is an integral part in how well said line loads said rod. Fast and ultra-fast action rods aren't meant for casting under 40 feet, if we're being honest, and thus how they load at those distances is probably not relevant.

I'll stop blathering now. I think I'm starting to confuse myself.

 

[tomitrout]

whether most people are just buying the wrong rod for the job and then blaming the rod manufacturers.

There's a lot of truth to this.

Fast and ultra-fast action rods aren't meant for casting under 40 feet, if we're being honest, and thus how they load at those distances is probably not relevant.

Sure they are, but most folks don't like using them in close w/ the rated line weight because it takes a faster, more hurried casting stroke to get them to load in close, which isn't really all that relaxing. It's easier to increase the weight of the line than it is to increase the acceleration of your cast to properly load the rod.

 

[Stenonema]

Yeah Kray, I just can't buy into it. A bad casting stroke is just that and bad timing should be fixed by practice not made up for by equipment.
In my experience most average to below average casters have other issues to overcome before they can begin a feel for timing. Without a good loop formed by a good stroke and stop, timing and feel is more than difficult to feel or become consistent with. The feel for timing that we are discussing by over lining is the result of the loop opening and the line becoming straight. The feel is the rod loading as the loop ends and straightens. A good stoke, stop and loop formation and shape and speed are all factors weighing in. A fast tight loop ends with more energy than a slow open loop. Is a softer rod more sensitive?
I don't disagree that it may be easier for a new caster to get the feel for a slower rod. Again, my answer to number two was yes for short casts and No for long casts.

What is the best way to make a poor caster a better caster?

 

[KeithS]

I'm not a particularly great caster, but know that you HAVE TO cast a rod before you buy it. The problem is, there are fewer and fewer shops around and new FF'ers usually wind up ordering online after reading reviews and hype.
You don't buy a car without at least a 5 mile test drive, right? You wouldn't have a clue of how the car feels.
Add to that the fact that a new FF'er doesn't even KNOW how a rod should feel and you have underlining or overlining AFTER bad habits have set in..

 

[greenlander]

tomitrout wrote:
Sure they are, but most folks don't like using them in close w/ the rated line weight because it takes a faster, more hurried casting stroke to get them to load in close, which isn't really all that relaxing. It's easier to increase the weight of the line than it is to increase the acceleration of your cast to properly load the rod.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that these rods aren't EVER supposed to be used in these situations, what I'm saying is that if you're casting primarily under 30-40 feet -- then that's not what those rods are designed for. Sure, you CAN, but why?