Fisheries Management Area 6 - SE Pa.

[Mike]

I will admit that at times I have to grit my teeth when I see comments on this board about PFBC staffing. I can't speak for other divisions or what you as an angler may see around the state. I can, however, speak for biological (fisheries management) staffing in SE Pa. without complaint. It is what it is, but I think there are those of you who may be a bit surprised when you learn a few statistics. Generally, I would say all of your biologists around the state are stretched pretty thin. Here is an example. A former boss calculated that the SE Area Fisheries Management region covers a geographical area the size of Connecticut and roughly half of Rhode Island combined. As for the human population in the fisheries management region, it is more than that in those two states combined. One has to wonder how many biologists are employed by those states. The SE fisheries management region has had two biologists for three years (along with a 3-4 month seasonal) and when fully staffed has three. These biologists do not just work with trout. They may spend their year working with largemouth bass and smallmouth bass populations, striped bass, American eels, walleye, American shad, muskies, pickerel, panfish, channel catfish, snakeheads, flathead catfish, etc. Please bear this in mind when you are frustrated that trout may not be getting all of the attention that you think they deserve.

 

[SlumpBuster]

Very True Mike. I don't think most people really understand what it takes to do all of the projects in PA. Its almost usually more politics then it ever is science. Also the majority of the public wants warm water species so that is what the biologist must work on. If people want more work to be done on trout they should get more people involved in fishing for them. Finally, although I don't agree with how the PFBC do a lot of their work I think under the circumstances they are doing a decent good job.

 

[Will]

Is someone posting that PFBC has too many biologists or that those it does have are less active than they should be? I'm not trying to stir up trouble, but I looked around a bit and did not see it. I tend to see complaints here about some PFBC policies on stocking, and I've complained about that myself in the past, but in the rare instances when somebody attacks fisheries staffers specifically, there's usually a negative reaction from others (and properly so).

 

[troutbert]

I didn't see the posts Mike referred to, but agree that staffing is woefully inadequate (in numbers not quality!).

Has the NC PA Area Fisheries Manager position been filled yet, now that Bruce Hollender retired?

 

[Chaz]

I have always though that the Region guys have done an exemplary job considering the size of the area they cover and the number of streams. The wild trout streams alone are over 200 in number add to that the number of large lakes, and the Delaware River and Estuary add the region is huge.

 

[Squaretail]

Slumpbuster I have to wonder why you believe warmwater species draw more interest? We sell more licenses on opening day for trout than opening day of bass by probably 10 to 1 at my work. And we're 10 mins from the Susky We sell more trout related product than anything else. Just an inquiring mind.

 

[FarmerDave]

Squaretail wrote:
Slumpbuster I have to wonder why you believe warmwater species draw more interest? We sell more licenses on opening day for trout than opening day of bass by probably 10 to 1 at my work. And we're 10 mins from the Susky We sell more trout related product than anything else. Just an inquiring mind.

Squaretail, I think there are a couple errors in that reasoning.

1. The people who buy their licenses for opening day of trout are after stocked trout (for the most part). And trout season is not open all year for stocked streams under general regulation.

2. Bass is open all year.

3. Also, trout opening day is before bass opening day. Most of those guys who buy licenses for trout opening day, also fish for bass once the water starts to warm up. Since we don't have a bass tag, comparing opening day license sales is not a fair comparison.

Here is what i would look at. first we need to look at license sales for the whole year. Compare how many fishing licenses are sold to how many trout stamps are sold. It is safe to assume the ones who buy a license and no trout tag are only interested in warm water species. Then you have to look at surveys of people who buy trout stamps. How many of those also fish for warm water species. Add that number to the first one.

I think it is safe to assume that the average angler is more interested in warm water species.

 

[OhioOutdoorsman]

Well, it would be nice if "resource first" maybe meant a larger portion of the trout stamps went to fisheries biologists dedicate to wild trout management rather than stocking.

 

[SlumpBuster]

Squartail,
I think Farmer Dan took the words right out of my mouth. Second where do you work. The type of place may show why there are more trout anglers there. Maybe you carry more things for trout.

OhioOutdoorsman,
The trout stamp was made to bring money into the stocking system. Much of that money will never be seen in wild trout stream improvements because most PA trout fisherman belive that trout only live in Big White Trucks. They think this is the only way to have the trout in PA and until this mentality changes nothing in PA will change and our wild trout waters will not greately improve.

 

[JackM]

SlumpBuster wrote:

.... because most PA trout fisherman belive that trout only live in Big White Trucks. They think this is the only way to have the trout in PA and until this mentality changes nothing in PA will change and our wild trout waters will not greately improve.

This is an interesting point to explore-- getting more trout anglers in Pennsylvania to stop fishing for stocked trout in marginal waters, but rather fish for them in our wild trout streams is seen as a way to "greatly improve" those wild trout waters. Just a personal feeling, but it seems a great leap of faith would be required to accept this proposition. Perhaps I have misunderstood. :-o

 

[SlumpBuster]

Jack,
I think this argument makes perfect sense. The PFBC will never put much money into wild trout streams, improving them and protecting the trout, if the public is not interested in doing so our has no idea about the issues involved with them. Until the public is informed about these things wild trout in our state will remain on the back burner and most people will continue to belive trout only come in a big white truck. I'd venture to say that most trout fisherman in PA don't even know there are wild trout. If more money could be moved into wild trout issues the marginal streams that are stocked could probably be changed into wild trout streams. That should make you happy since there are apparently no wild trout streams near Pittsburg. So overall I think informing the public about wild trout streams would be benifical to them.

 

[JackM]

Now that you have explained it, it doesn't make perfect sense at all. It would be a mistake to have as your goal shifting the general populace of anglers toward fishing wild trout streams if:

1. You don't also educate them on conservation practices; and
2. There aren't sufficient wild trout streams to accomodate the anglers shifted in that direction.

Moreover, the general populace of trout anglers don't want to catch small trout or have to drive 2-3 hours to catch larger ones.

While there are some wild trout streams where the recreational angling capacity can be improved, the overwhelming majority cannot be improved through feasable measures with the money saved on the hatchery system. No matter how many boulders are rolled into the stream, banks stabilized, dams and diversions built, unless you can refrigerate the flows to improve thermal issues, build diversion wells, liming systems, etc. to improve buffering and increase fertility and condemn houses, strip malls and factories that pollute stream and ground-water sources, you will still have a need and good use for artificially created and maintained trout fisheries.

It may help rhetorically for you to make myths regarding my knowledge of wild trout opportunities in southwestern Pennsylvania, but I can assure you that I am well-aware of what we have and it is exactly as I have portrayed it to be -- pretty little streams, with pretty little trout-- all great fun for a month or two of exploring, then not very challenging and, frankly, downright boring.

 

[SlumpBuster]

Catch and release and conservation would be taught to the public along with the issues facing wild trout streams. This may move more people over to the wild trout streams but a large amount of money going into the habitat and stream improvement would definitely make a huge diffrence in the size and number of wild trout in streams. Take for instance, Kettle Creek is heaviley stocked with trout. If stream improvments such as habitat and riperian buffers were put into place on Kettle the stream could easily support wild trout i would imagine in both high numbers and size. Even though this is currentely being done in small peices with large backing by the PFBC the large amount of improvements could be done and the stream repaired back to what it could have been if it wasn't stocked. Second Jack, if you would stop arguing on how great stocking is, how it hurts nothing, and how bad the wild trout fishing is in your area and you actually went out and did something maybe things would change. :-x Maybe its time someone stuck a stick in your cage for once.

 

[MattBoyer]

Take for instance, Kettle Creek is heaviley stocked with trout. If stream improvments such as habitat and riperian buffers were put into place on Kettle the stream could easily support wild trout i would imagine in both high numbers and size.

Is that the Kettle that was 76 degrees on the 1st week of June when even Pine was in the 60's? Just curious.

Boyer

 

[Squaretail]

Though I never joined the gang I was up there during the jamboree on the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. If the Pine was in the 60's I would wonder if you were below a trib? Or it was 69.9999 degrees?
I went to both and in general Kettle seemed a bit colder (though neither were cold) and the trout reacted as such with much better results in 9 at Kettle for one outing and 3 at Pine in 2 outings and easily better insects at Pine. Best thing about the weekend was the hatches/spinnerfalls that I had never witnessed before.
But some of the other fellers may have had different results.

 

[JackM]

The cage that you are poking a stick in is empty. I do not reside there. Find another person to be your strawman. Kettle Creek is 4.5 hours away from me. As I said, there may be some wild streams that could be improved by streamwork. I don't see why anyone with a sense of fairness would consent to using license dollars collected from Allegheny County, for instance, to add a few dozen miles to the 100s of existing wild trout stream miles in Potter County.

 

[RLeeP]

>>I don't see why anyone with a sense of fairness would consent to using license dollars collected from Allegheny County, for instance, to add a few dozen miles to the 100s of existing wild trout stream miles in Potter County.>>

Well, that's easy enough...

We're a Commonwealth...

 

[MattBoyer]

Squaretail wrote:
Though I never joined the gang I was up there during the jamboree on the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. If the Pine was in the 60's I would wonder if you were below a trib? Or it was 69.9999 degrees?
I went to both and in general Kettle seemed a bit colder (though neither were cold) and the trout reacted as such with much better results in 9 at Kettle for one outing and 3 at Pine in 2 outings and easily better insects at Pine. Best thing about the weekend was the hatches/spinnerfalls that I had never witnessed before.
But some of the other fellers may have had different results.

Little bit of both. I was just brandishing my stick a bit as well. Slumpy always gets a little testy and I was bored. My bad.

Boyer

 

[MattBoyer]

I'd hafta also say ditto on the hatches/falls. Very impressive. Every flowing body of water was a bug factory that weekend.

Boyer

 

[SlumpBuster]

Boyer,
Not sure where you measured the water temps for wither streams. I know Pine was warmer than that earlier in the season. Not sure of exact temp but it was in the 70s about mid-May. As for Kettle I measured the temp in the first week of June also. It was 56 in the class A section. As where some of the tribs that aren't Class A. Kettle does warm significantly further down because of how wide it is. But it was like that 200 years ago also. I don't get testy. Jack just likes to argue and he needs someone to argue at. I give him that chance and help release the stress he gets from being a lawyer.

Jack M,

Ok we'll try another stream. The Yough which I have fished many times could certinaly be a Class A stream if it was managed correctely . Because it is a tailwater it has cold water year round. But because they dump tons of stockies into it, it does not have the chance to become what it could. Spend your money on that. Secondly, sorry your money already goes to projects far away from you. Maybe you should take up golfing.