Retail store brand differences...

[Big-Bass]

Let me just say that in the few months of being a member of this site, I have been presented with a great wealth of info from many people about many topics. One thing that I was wondering as I browsed through an online catalog recently is quality differences among big name retail brand equipment.

For instance, I see some stuff on Cabela's that looks quality but then see the Simms brand stuff that looks similar at almost triple the price. Is there a durability difference that vast to make up for the price? Don't get me wrong, I do own some Simms clothing, but it seems that no matter what, the tag says it was manufactured overseas. It can also be said for rods...

For instance, Cabela's has a few lines that are similar priced:

MTX: $399 (made in Korea)
American Dream: $299 but MADE IN USA...how can this be and still keep the price down without sacrificing quality? Most USA made rods with these bells and whistles cost $500 plus
L-Tech: $219 (made in Korea)
LSI: $179 (made in Korea)

Why would the American made rod be cheaper than the MTX? Supposedly the MTX uses 3M (which so does Loomis and St. Croix) so would this be their non-branded rod made overseas?

Sorry for the rant, but I thought I would ask...

 

[pcray1231]

Ok, first, Cabelas does not "make" anything. Simms does make stuff that gets branded Cabela's. As does Hodgeman, etc. In any line of product, pretty much look at the brand names that Cabela's sells. Those companies also make stuff to be branded "Cabela's" as well.

I'm not sure of the business deals behind the scenes. There are likely agreements for Cabela's NOT to sale "competitor X" brand. Cabela's might require it in order to sell your brand, they do have pull as a large retailer.

But generally, the stuff branded "Cabela's" will be similar to, but not quite meet the standards of an exact name brand product. So Simms likely does make Cabela's branded waders. They probably look awfully similar to a specific Simms model. But they might be stuff that failed an inspection, and got "downgraded" to Cabelas brand. They might be leftovers after Simms upgraded it's product and had some old ones leftover. Perhaps the factory ran out of, say, "inner linings", and instead of shutting down for a while they started putting out stuff to be branded by Cabelas. They may just use a less expensive material or process on certain parts.

Is the difference in quality worth 3x the price? That's up to you. Sometimes the difference in quality may be very small, other times very large, and it's gonna be hard for you to figure out. Plus, it's up to you how much you value that improvement.

And yes, in just about anything, the cost you pay at the store is at least double, if not more than 10x, than the cost to manufacture said item. You'd think that equates with HUGE profits, and in some cases, yes. But in many cases those profits are merely used by Cabela's to field test equipment, hire and train employees, hold inventory, build new stores, market, etc. From what I understand, Cabela's main profit these days comes from it's credit card business, not it's store sales.

 

[krayfish]

BB,

In some cases, you get junk under the "store brand" and in other cases you get some good stuff. I swore I wanted the Cabelas welded seam waders. Went down and tried them on...ended up with G3's. I've owned at least 5, maybe 6 Cableas fly rods. All but one needed to be replaced. Some snapped while casting and others while simply stringing up the rod. They treated fine with the returns but I just felt the product didn't last. The LSI is a very nice casting rod too.
I think their line is made by SA. I got some for my nephew and it floats fine. It doesn't go out the guides very well at all. I'd label it as awful. I've got 2 rain jackets from them and they are good.

Is a rod made in the US better than one made in Korea? For the past couple of years, the answer might have been "no" since the Hardy Zenith was ruling reviews and it's made overseas. Again, it's one of those where you can get good stuff or get junk. All depends on what you are shopping for, what you want to spend and what your expectations are for the product you are buying.

 

[gfen]

Their lines were Cortland, until Cortland underwent reorg, then they sold them all and started doing SA.

I can assure you the last generation of waders weren't Simms, having owned a pair of each. The Dry Plus Guide or whatever they were called I had fit like a trashbag and had a much cheaper feel than the low end Simms I currently have, which are cut nicely, feel great, and have the tiniest ankle holes imaginable.

With the exception of the some specifically branded items, IE their rebranded Lamson model, their reels are sourced from the same Chinese CNC mills that pump out everything else on Ali Baba.

As to their rods, I suspect most of their rods are coming out of the same Azian shops that the non-USA made models are coming out of from other manufacturers, but that doesn't mean they're the same.

There's something to be said for changes in the graphite and resin compositions used, to say nothing of the way tapers change. Just because SeoulCo Inc produced 'em doesn't mean they're the same rod, they just happened to have a workforce that knows how to operate the machine.

I highly doubt that any company willingly sells their seconds through another retailer. That's a story that's been told about high end consumer electronics for years, and its simply not true.

Would you stick your company name on someone else's second and then advertise it to be quality? No.

 

[nymphingmaniac]

I know rebranding occurs. I am surprised to read pcray claiming Simms makes candelas items. It was my understanding that cabelas has no waders made in the USA. Simms make all but their cheapest in the USA. Now, what could occur is that both Simms and cabelas use the same overseas manufacturer, but this does not mean they are made by Simms. Often this is the confusion. It is certainly true rebranded items do not have the same quality control or materials.
Something that is more subjective, but I have yet to see a cabelas item approach Simms quality. Even the premium stuff.
what matters is what you feel is the best value. I haven't seen a wading boot with better sole support than Simms top three lines. I haven't seen a wader as good as the g3 or g4 either. The debate if the price difference is worth it is fair. I do find it hard to believe the quality is equivalent

 

[SBecker]

I do know for a fact one of their sets of rods was made by Gloomis.

 

[krayfish]

I had an ft+ from them and it was an awesome rod. Broke in front oJeff while while stringing it up at the Tully. They replaced it with a pt model which I then returned for store credit and then bought 9 pounds of circus peanuts from over near the registers.

 

[SBecker]

Lmao.....I take you for a fudge kinda guy.

 

[pcray1231]

I highly doubt that any company willingly sells their seconds through another retailer. That's a story that's been told about high end consumer electronics for years, and its simply not true.

Happens all the time in manufacturing. Not that it's "off" quality. But if you make the same product for 2 different companies, well, those companies have specs. Now, you enter an order for company A, and manufacturer it. At the end, one of the tests fails per company A's specs. However, it fits for company B's spec. Is it scrap? Heck no, it goes into inventory and gets approved for company B's next order!

That said, "different" specs does not mean more and less stringent, i.e. that one's better than the other. Just different requirements. There's usually trade-offs to everything, and company B chose a different trade-off, that's all.

 

[pcray1231]

I am surprised to read pcray claiming Simms makes candelas items. It was my understanding that cabelas has no waders made in the USA. Simms make all but their cheapest in the USA.

First, I do not know what Simms does or doesn't make for Cabelas. I was using them as a hypothetical company, not a specific case that I know of. Merely trying to describe how Cabela's operates and where their branded products come from. However, Cabela's doesn't make anything, and they don't design anything from scratch. They take existing products, and alter the design (in conjunction with the other company), and then piggyback on the other company's supply chain.

I'm not saying it never happens, but it's not typically generic knock off stuff through alibaba or something. They have real brands (like Simms) make stuff for them, and aquire it through that brand's supply chain, not around it.

Sometimes companies do produce essentially the exact same thing to be branded Cabelas. In most cases, perhaps there are a lot of similarities, but, say, a Simms type entity (not a specific example, just a for instance) will make the same design with cheaper materials to be branded Cabelas, thus maintaining their superiority. Or there will be a few features missing or changed, or whatever. Something to distinguish the name brand.

Much of the cost of any product is in design, testing, setting up a facility to produce it on a mass scale, etc. Cabelas is cheap because it doesn't do that stuff. It piggybacks on companies who did that for them. The details are worked out in commercial agreements. The right for your brand to be sold at Cabelas requires that you give something to Cabelas. It might be just plain money or a healthy cut of the profit on stuff sold there. Or, you can collaborate with them to make something to be Cabela's branded to compete with your low end stuff. They can entice you to do more for them by allowing you to sell more models through them, giving you more catalog space, etc.

 

[ebroesicke]

having worked there, I can tell you that there is truth in just about all of these posts....sometimes it is hard to tell, sometimes not. When I was there they had a Flouro line ( not in fly shop), that was made by Seaguar, said it right on the label.

There was a line of rods ( not fly) that was probably made by Loomis, but that was in the past and I don't think they are anymore, I could be wrong about that.

FWIW most clothing comes out of a relatively few factories, and they have large, closely guarded safes that have about 1000 different labels in them. The labels get slapped on at the end. Not saying the designs/ materials are the same, just saying they are mostly made in the same place.

 

[nymphingmaniac]

pcray, Just admit you didn't mean it the way you wrote it in your posts (lines 1,2 and 9,10). Please don't make it sound like I was misrepresenting what you wrote in any way.
We all write things that don't come out the way we mean. i certainly do.

 

[pcray1231]

I thought I did. I was using Simms as a hypothetical company, because they have name recognition among us and it helped me make an example. You read it differently than what I intended. I tried to clear up what I meant.

I DO NOT HAVE ANY SPECIFIC KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT SIMMS DOES OR DOES NOT MAKE FOR CABELAS.

I do have knowledge of how Cabela's operates and obtains branded products.

 

[pcray1231]

I do know that Loomis and St. Croix, at one point at least, made many of the Cabela's branded rod line.

And ebro stated, sometimes it's extremely obvious. For instance, in boots, it'll say right on the product description something like "Cabelas by Danner".

The truth is that most of the Cabela's branded stuff is the same way. Whether Danner puts it's name on a product like this is decided in commercial agreements at higher levels, and I'm sure there's plenty of give and take. But even if it doesn't say it, every single Cabelas branded product is "Cabelas by ______." And that ______ is very likely a brand that Cabelas already carries in that line of product.

Cabela's doesn't go around the supply chain of the name brands for it's products. It goes through the the name brands to get it's products, and in return, offers those name brands the advantage of sales space in Cabelas stores, catalogs, etc.