A few rookie questions

[trevor]

I just started wading local warmwater streams this year and love it. I just used shorts and flip flops with no problem. Until one time I saw a snapping turtle chasing me, and now I am wondering if I should wear something other than flip flops for small to medium stream wading? Also, are there ever any problems with snakes in warmwater streams? If so, how do you address it?

 

[pcray1231]

Since you were wearing shorts, I have my doubts if you'd want to wear hot neoprene or rubber, hence your option is breathables. I have my doubts if breathables are gonna do much for you against a snapping turtle, or even fanged snakes for that mater.

As far as snakes, sure, there's plenty of snakes in streams. But we're mostly talking water snakes in the water, and they may be nasty and leave a mark but they're not inherently dangerous. The bank is more of a danger, where copperheads and rattlers are possible. Breathables may slightly lower the chances of a bite hitting home, heavy rubber or neoprene would do more, and if you want complete protection they do sell snake chaps and gators. But unless you know it to be absolutely infested with em, just keeping an eye out is probably enough. I don't think the danger is high enough to warrant gearing up, if it were, we'd be wearing full flame suits for the drive to the river.

That said, the biggest danger is probably bacteria. Ask JayL about it. Fall and scrape a leg underwater and nasty stuff will get in there from the water. Waders of any type, including breathables, are likely to help with that, though you might get some arguments on that too as the inside of waders in hot sweaty weather can get pretty rank themselves. Again, ask JayL.

 

[MKern]

A lot of people wet wade, but it's not for me. I have done it and am sure I will in the future, ut I feel more comfortable in waders (besides the extra body heat).

If I do wet wade it's is usually in a warmwater stream.

The do have wading sandles and shoes.

 

[bam]

Just watch those toes... I can't imagine wading in flip flops. As MKern noted, check out some wading sandals or shoes. They'll have a toe guard and maybe a little ankle support.

 

[Pontus]

If you didn't have any traction problems in flip flops, then old sneakers will probably be fine for you.

 

[gfen]

I did alot of summer wading in shorts, neoprene socks, and my wading boots. I want something that'll keep me upright and protected, and that's boots.

Since boots are loose fitting for wader use, that meant the neoprene socks.

"Guide" pants are pretty awesome, too. They absolutely dry off in about 10 minutes of walking, and are light enough that you don't mind wearing them. Keeps stinging neetles, bugs, and filth from making you miserable.

 

[trevor]

My concern with wading sandals, etc. was that pebbles will constantly be getting in them. But I guess they don't. I have only seen a few snakes, but I had no idea what kind they were and I'd be in pretty bad shape if I got bitten by a snake with no help around and it was poisonous.

 

[bam]

Gfen's method with the guide pants/boots are nice too. Keeps you protected from poision ivy, bugs and streamside vegetation. You will get a few pebbles, but I can't imagine it'd be any worse than flip flops...

 

[JakesLeakyWaders]

I wet wade from early May to September in warm and cold water streams.

I've been looking at getting a pair of Keen wading shoes as they enclose the toes.

I usually wear the sandal type with 3 straps and they work well, especially the Nike pair that I've had for a while, they are more comfortable than some others.

I know what you mean about the snappers, I do not feel comfortable wading in a stream after seeing one, especially in less than clear water and slow stretches.

Also, the hiking pants that zip off above the knee are great for hiking through brush / wading, as long as you have some space to stash the pant legs.

 

[pcray1231]

But I guess they don't. I have only seen a few snakes, but I had no idea what kind they were

lol. Here's what you do, get real close and look at the shape of the eyes. Round and its not poisonous. Elongated and it is.

Joking of course. It's correct but I always laugh when they tell you that. googled some images for you.

Copperhead (poisonous)

http://www.uvm.edu/~jbartlet/nr260/animal%20life/reptiles/copperhead.jpg

Rattlesnake (black and yellow phase, poisonous)

http://www.masnakes.org/snakes/timber_rattle/thumbs/fullsize/timber_rattlesnake_500_TomPalmer_fs_fs.jpg

http://www.sierrapotomac.org/W_Needham/Pictures/Timber_Rattle_Snake_09_13_03.jpg

There's a handful of Massauga rattlers too, but they're in such a tiny area and so rare they're not worth mentioning. Both types are very fat snakes, and thats the first impression, very fat. They also have larger scales than our other snakes. And a very large, triangular head is a distinctive feature, but it can be misleading as on close inspection other snakes heads can be triangular too, just not to such a degree.

We have lots of types nonvenomous snakes, and most of those types are much more common than the poisonous ones. Water snakes and black rat snakes are the two I think are most commonly mistaken for poisonous snakes. Generally, if its in the water, it's non-poisonous, with very few exceptions. On land it can be tougher to tell, especially since many individuals look different depending on where they are in the shedding cycle.

Water snakes. Typically small head. Skinnier than the poisonous snakes. Always near water. Very aggressive and they like to shake their tails in leaves and such to mimic rattlers. Coloration varies a lot, from light tan, to reddish, many shades of brown, to almost black. But they usually have a pretty strong pattern on them.

http://www.dpughphoto.com/images/northern%20water%20snake%20durham%2070607.JPG

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/51/156938918_b27869f228.jpg

Black rat snakes. Typically solid black with a white chin, but they can have some patterning when they just shed or they are wet. These guys can get big.

http://www.michigan.gov/images/black_rat_snake_101499_7.jpg

 

[gfen]

Forgot the hog nose snake. IIRC, hog nose snakes do a rattle snake impersonation before they flop over and play dead. Hog nose snakes are actually considered venomous, but IIRC, are rear fanged and its so mild you won't have anything to worry about anyways. I'm out of my element on that, and I suspect correction forthcoming.

FWIW, most snakes seek only to leave ASAP. That rattle is a way for them to tell you to back off, not that htey're going to attack, but that they will if you threaten them.

You don't really have much to worry about, if you see a snake, just back off in the other direction. Don't prod at it iwth your rod or attempt to step over it, just give it a nice, wide berth. Chances are, its going to leave. That rattle snake would rather conserve its venom for prey than for your leg.

The possible exception of this is most water snakes. They're generally poorly tempered, at least everyone I've had the displeasure of tormenting.

Also, FWIW, a non venomous snake bite still sucks.

 

[clc]

How poisonous are the copperheads and rattlers? Enough to kill you? When in boy scouts if I remember they aren't deadly to most fit adults. Not that I wanna get bit. Last year I stepped on a snake thinking it was a rock or pile of leaves lol I was darn lucky and probably killed the poor guy.

 

[Fishidiot]

trevor,
My advice would be that danger from snakes (here in PA) or snapping turtles while wading is virtually non-existent. Despite the insistence of some ignorant folks who swear they see 'em.....there are absolutely no water mocassins in PA. This is a venomous snake common in the South but folks who claim they see them here (usually the guy packing a handgun while fishin) don't know what they're talking about.

Get some good sandals or wading shoes to protect your feet from sharp objects on the stream bottom. Also, I'd recommend you ditch the shorts and get some long pants for wading as this will protect your legs from some of the rough vegetation that lines our creeks in the summer.

 

[Fishidiot]

clc wrote:
How poisonous are the copperheads and rattlers? Enough to kill you? When in boy scouts if I remember they aren't deadly to most fit adults. Not that I wanna get bit. Last year I stepped on a snake thinking it was a rock or pile of leaves lol I was darn lucky and probably killed the poor guy.

Although fairly closely related, rattlesnakes are generally more venomous than copperheads - usually by a wide margin. This is due to rattlers injecting larger quantities of venom and due to their venom's greater toxicity. A copperhead bite would almost certainly pose no threat to the life of a healthy adult (will hurt like heck and require medical attention). A bite from a timber rattlesnake, which is the only common rattlesnake in PA, could possibly be fatal to an adult but not likely. The "diamondback" rattlesnakes found in the South and southwest are considerably more lethal and, although most folks will recover, their bites are very serious.

 

[gfen]

clc wrote:
How poisonous are the copperheads and rattlers? Enough to kill you?

Yes.

Copperheads aren't as deadly as rattlesnakes, and their fangs aren't as adept at delivering the venom. I know that copperheads aren't considered to be very deadly, but again am starting to move out of my comfort zone.

The eastern timber rattler is, on the other hand, serious business. Death is a real concern.

 

[pcray1231]

Venomous rattlesnake and copperhead bites are both very serious. Rare. but serious. I say venomous because there are "dry" bites, where a venomous snake injects no poison.

In most cases the bite won't cause death to a healthy adult, you are right. But you certainly don't want to get tagged by one! There may be up to a month of in hospitals, surgery to remove dead tissue, etc. That body part may never recover fully, there will be scars, etc. And from what I understand its incredibly painful, the worst pain you can imagine for long time periods.

Here's an example of a typical story of a timber rattler bite, the same type of rattler we have.

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/345

That said, I don't mean to overly scare the initial poster. Bites are very rare, and when they do occur, its mostly when the person was trying to handle the snake. I don't know of a single story of a real, accidental bite in PA, and we have plenty of hikers, fishermen, etc. who go out where the snakes are. You truly have much more of a chance of serious injury by driving to get to the stream.

That said, if you see one, keep your distance until you identify it. And don't handle it if you're not absolutely sure its nonvenomous!

 

[gfen]

Woah.

Pcray's link contains vile, vile photos of some dude with hunks of his arm cut open. I didn't go much further.

 

[Fishidiot]

Yeah, don't click on pcray's link if you're squeamish. Nevertheless, it's a good cautionary tale by a guy describing his ordeal after being bitten by a (captive) timber rattlesnake. Although his experience may be unique with regards to some of his symptoms, overall, this is a typical result. The guy obviously survives but endures severe pain and one terrible experience nobody would ever want to go through again.

 

[jdaddy]

Fishidiot wrote:
Despite the insistence of some ignorant folks who swear they see 'em.....there are absolutely no water mocassins in PA.

But what about mountain lions? I kid, I kid.

Actually what Pcray said earlier about the incident Jay had is a great point and likely a greater threat than snakes or turtles. Frankly I find his photos much worse than the photo in the snake bite link. Having said that, I still have issues wearing waders during the heat of the Summer.

 

[jayL]

As someone who possessed the zombie flesh on my leg, I can confidently say that pcray's link is a nightmare scenario. No matter how vile, pus-filled, and multicolored the thing on my leg was, it comes nowhere close to that guy's hell.

For the morbidly curious... It got a good bit worse before it got better.