TimMurphy
Well-known member
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- Sep 9, 2006
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Dear Board,
http://www.donnan.com/Marcellus-Gas_Hickory.htm
Regards,
Tim Murphy
http://www.donnan.com/Marcellus-Gas_Hickory.htm
Regards,
Tim Murphy
B
Brownout
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- May 8, 2009
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- 252
Well, that is a giant website page there, with a ton of info and some very ugly sites. Nuclear power is the way to go, this is a mess. The money invested in that infrastructure looks insane. Cold weather comes and the profit flows. Now what will we do about it?
Maurice
Administrator
Staff member
In about 20-30 years we will create a program to clean it up kinda like the "brown fields" and "superfund sites"
The messed up thing is that they pushed this through knowing full well (no pun intended) that they would not be able to enforce the regulations.
It should make for some good programming on PBS in about 5-10 years too. Maybe they can bring back the indin with the tear. Don't ya miss him?
afishinado
Moderator
Staff member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7OHG7tHrNM
T
troutbert
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- Nov 2, 2006
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The website deals a lot with Washington County, but a lot of this will be coming to DCNR state forest lands in the "PA Wilds" area of NC PA, i.e. the best freestone wild trout section of the state.
B
Brownout
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It's a perfect crime that came at a great time for them to cry, jobs, jobs, jobs. IMO, the US has horrible re-training programs for the unemployed. Jobs in a sector that devastates drinking water are not an option. Look at that site, those land owners have money now, and they can't even live on their land.
There is no way this is cost competitive when it goes toe-to-toe with nuclear. France, 89% of power from nuclear, clean air, so much surplus power, they send it to the rest of Europe. Where is the environmentalists for nuclear power group, I'm goin to join. Wind, solar, isn't gonna do it this far north now. If the whole coast was lined with turbines it may get close, but the war with scenic views will probably drag out forever.
There is no way this is cost competitive when it goes toe-to-toe with nuclear. France, 89% of power from nuclear, clean air, so much surplus power, they send it to the rest of Europe. Where is the environmentalists for nuclear power group, I'm goin to join. Wind, solar, isn't gonna do it this far north now. If the whole coast was lined with turbines it may get close, but the war with scenic views will probably drag out forever.
R
reds
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- Dec 1, 2007
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- 283
First off if this was going on in Philly it would have been stopped by now. Second off it gets very little attention from the idiots in Harrisburg because the republicans want it to happen so bad. Brownout is entirely right about the jobs, jobs, jobs line, that is the claim all of the gas companies are giving to everyone up here, yet when you go on a drill site 90% of the people are from out of the state, mainly from Texas, Oklahoma and West Virginia. The DEP is looking at 20% funding cut right now to enforce regs on these sites and the DCNR is being forced to lease its land by the legislature right now, especially three representatives who have been bought by gas companies, this is in spite of the fact that the secretary stated they will not get top dollar by a lease right now and do not want to do a lease now.
Troutbert this has already come to the "wilds", travel the dirt roads off of the East Fork of the Sinnemahoning or look at the withdrawal site on Pine Creek below Galeton.
I am all for the US developing its own gas supply, but right now the laws are not caught up to the people exploiting the environment. The state has not even bothered to look into the injustice of the mineral rights owners having more control than the surface owner, even though it is the surface owner who has paid taxes on the land for years. Meanwhile the gas companies make money hand over fist and go unchecked and unimpeded in the march for more dollars.
The scary thing is that this has been posted on a flyfishing site all day with five replies, yet when someone criticizes the moderators on the board it draws three pages worth of replies in a day. How many guys on this site actually care about what is really jeopardizing the fishing this state?
Troutbert this has already come to the "wilds", travel the dirt roads off of the East Fork of the Sinnemahoning or look at the withdrawal site on Pine Creek below Galeton.
I am all for the US developing its own gas supply, but right now the laws are not caught up to the people exploiting the environment. The state has not even bothered to look into the injustice of the mineral rights owners having more control than the surface owner, even though it is the surface owner who has paid taxes on the land for years. Meanwhile the gas companies make money hand over fist and go unchecked and unimpeded in the march for more dollars.
The scary thing is that this has been posted on a flyfishing site all day with five replies, yet when someone criticizes the moderators on the board it draws three pages worth of replies in a day. How many guys on this site actually care about what is really jeopardizing the fishing this state?
jayL
Active member
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- Jan 2, 2007
- Messages
- 9,947
Reds,
Simple. When you post something people agree with, they nod in approval and move on.
When you post something people disagree with, then you get 3 page threads.
Simple. When you post something people agree with, they nod in approval and move on.
When you post something people disagree with, then you get 3 page threads.
pcray1231
Well-known member
Well, I totally agree with Brownout on nuclear.
As for Tim, the drilling issue certainly needs to be watched carefully, but I wouldn't label myself as totally against it. More in the "make sure they do it right" category, which I fear is not being done right now. The linked article is very biased, and its never a good idea to take stuff like that as the gospel.
Frankly, I don't find anything in the pictures to be all that appalling. Some pictures of the catch basins are pretty ugly, but at least its in catch basins. The orange pipe in the stream for extraction, but they're not extracting at that moment, so you don't know if they do it during high flow or not. A coon drank from the catch basin and died, big deal, its a coon.
My dad had a well go in 200 yards behind his house (not on his property, though). It really sucked during the operation, mostly noise, mud, trucks, lights, and the worst part, at all times of the night. It was a lot like the pictures, actually. But it lasted all of 2 or 3 months and they were gone, the derrick came down, the trailers towed away, the pipes disassembled, all the fluids tanked out, presumably to be treated. Landscaped the remaining areas and replanted. No garbage, nothing. The only thing that remains is the actual well, which is quiet and not all that obtrusive, just like the many other wells in the area. Deer eat daily within 10 yards of it on the new sprouts, his tree stand will actually probably go right over it. The stream that runs between the house and the drilling was not harmed at all, I went and sampled the bugs, all was as it was before the drilling. They did not flatten a whole mountainside like in that picture though, we're talking maybe an acre. They did slightly "improve" the dirt road going in.
If thats the worst of it, I have no problems with it. I worry about where, and especially when, they take the water, how the treatment is done afterwards, and whether the DEP will actually enforce regulations so that companies don't cut corners.
As for Tim, the drilling issue certainly needs to be watched carefully, but I wouldn't label myself as totally against it. More in the "make sure they do it right" category, which I fear is not being done right now. The linked article is very biased, and its never a good idea to take stuff like that as the gospel.
Frankly, I don't find anything in the pictures to be all that appalling. Some pictures of the catch basins are pretty ugly, but at least its in catch basins. The orange pipe in the stream for extraction, but they're not extracting at that moment, so you don't know if they do it during high flow or not. A coon drank from the catch basin and died, big deal, its a coon.
My dad had a well go in 200 yards behind his house (not on his property, though). It really sucked during the operation, mostly noise, mud, trucks, lights, and the worst part, at all times of the night. It was a lot like the pictures, actually. But it lasted all of 2 or 3 months and they were gone, the derrick came down, the trailers towed away, the pipes disassembled, all the fluids tanked out, presumably to be treated. Landscaped the remaining areas and replanted. No garbage, nothing. The only thing that remains is the actual well, which is quiet and not all that obtrusive, just like the many other wells in the area. Deer eat daily within 10 yards of it on the new sprouts, his tree stand will actually probably go right over it. The stream that runs between the house and the drilling was not harmed at all, I went and sampled the bugs, all was as it was before the drilling. They did not flatten a whole mountainside like in that picture though, we're talking maybe an acre. They did slightly "improve" the dirt road going in.
If thats the worst of it, I have no problems with it. I worry about where, and especially when, they take the water, how the treatment is done afterwards, and whether the DEP will actually enforce regulations so that companies don't cut corners.
B
Brownout
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- May 8, 2009
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- 252
Nuclear does look good, the plants of today are not like the plants of old, and with reprocessing, this could buy us some great air and cheap power as we develop more efficient solar for cloudy locales. The entire Middle East is going nuclear as they sit on oil. Progress is being slowed as a result of the longest feud running in that region.
E
Elana
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- Jul 8, 2009
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pcray,
A coon drank some of the wastewater and died. OK, maybe not a big deal, but what happens when that water leaks into our creeks, streams and lakes. Operational errors do happen, and we've already seen that in Pennsylvania.
In Cross Creek Park, Washington County, a leaking waste water pipe from a Range Resources Marcellus shale gas well contaminated a stream, killing fish, salamanders, crayfish and aquatic insect life over a ¾ mile stretch of the tributary to Cross Creek Lake. The drilling company will likely be held accountable for that 3/4 mile stretch, but will they be responsible for the effects of that contamination on the watershed level?
I don't think that taxpayers should be left with the cleanup bill once drilling companies make their millions and leave.
A coon drank some of the wastewater and died. OK, maybe not a big deal, but what happens when that water leaks into our creeks, streams and lakes. Operational errors do happen, and we've already seen that in Pennsylvania.
In Cross Creek Park, Washington County, a leaking waste water pipe from a Range Resources Marcellus shale gas well contaminated a stream, killing fish, salamanders, crayfish and aquatic insect life over a ¾ mile stretch of the tributary to Cross Creek Lake. The drilling company will likely be held accountable for that 3/4 mile stretch, but will they be responsible for the effects of that contamination on the watershed level?
I don't think that taxpayers should be left with the cleanup bill once drilling companies make their millions and leave.
pcray1231
Well-known member
Elana,
I agree. I know about the Washington County incident. Like I said, I'm not against it, but I want to make sure it's done right. Could that company have used a higher quality of pipe that would have prevented the burst? Could there have been safety measures to prevent leaks from going into streams? I realize accidents will happen, but you can really cut the number of them down with well thought out regulations, proper oversight, and stiff penalties. You can also cut down the impacts of failures with backup systems.
Bottom line: that water should NOT leak into our creeks and streams. In the few incidents where it happens, we need to not only have that company held accountable, but also investigate the engineering reasons why it happened, provide a solution to prevent it from happening again, and have proper enforcement to make sure that company, and others, take the appropriate preventative steps.
I may have said that I'm for drilling, but nowhere did I say that I was happy with the way it was being done....
I agree. I know about the Washington County incident. Like I said, I'm not against it, but I want to make sure it's done right. Could that company have used a higher quality of pipe that would have prevented the burst? Could there have been safety measures to prevent leaks from going into streams? I realize accidents will happen, but you can really cut the number of them down with well thought out regulations, proper oversight, and stiff penalties. You can also cut down the impacts of failures with backup systems.
Bottom line: that water should NOT leak into our creeks and streams. In the few incidents where it happens, we need to not only have that company held accountable, but also investigate the engineering reasons why it happened, provide a solution to prevent it from happening again, and have proper enforcement to make sure that company, and others, take the appropriate preventative steps.
I may have said that I'm for drilling, but nowhere did I say that I was happy with the way it was being done....
tomgamber
Well-known member
There is an article in the latest Fly Rod & Reel on this...
Millertime
Member
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2009
- Messages
- 389
One of my better friends is a Land agent in Western PA for Snyder Gas and Oil out of Kitanning, PA.
This is process it a little intrusive, but they bring in all of the water from like the allegheny river and have DEP inspectors there 24 hours a day makeing sure nothing is harmed. . . there are millions of dollars worth of fines assesed if anything wrong happens. No company wants to deal with that. We all know how our government works.
My friend is an avid hunter and outdoorsman. He tells me there's nothing to worry about. Obviously, he is on the other side of the fence, but he is out in his own hunting areas pulling those inch think rubber liners for holding the fracting brine. He wouldn't lie to me and I am sure he is aware of any negative issues associated.
This is process it a little intrusive, but they bring in all of the water from like the allegheny river and have DEP inspectors there 24 hours a day makeing sure nothing is harmed. . . there are millions of dollars worth of fines assesed if anything wrong happens. No company wants to deal with that. We all know how our government works.
My friend is an avid hunter and outdoorsman. He tells me there's nothing to worry about. Obviously, he is on the other side of the fence, but he is out in his own hunting areas pulling those inch think rubber liners for holding the fracting brine. He wouldn't lie to me and I am sure he is aware of any negative issues associated.
JackM
Moderator
Staff member
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- Sep 9, 2006
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- 17,313
On the other hand:
http://www.earthworksaction.org/halliburton.cfm
http://www.earthworksaction.org/oil_and_gas.cfm
afishinado
Moderator
Staff member
This is a quote from the article posted above:
"...because it is impossible for fracturing fluids to reach underground water supplies and no such case has ever been proven."
One thing I never understood, if the fracking fluids are injected at high pressure into the rock to force out the gas, how does it not end up leaching into the groundwater?
"...because it is impossible for fracturing fluids to reach underground water supplies and no such case has ever been proven."
One thing I never understood, if the fracking fluids are injected at high pressure into the rock to force out the gas, how does it not end up leaching into the groundwater?
pcray1231
Well-known member
Afish,
Depth. Groundwater comes only from a layer a certain depth from the surface. Most of the deep earth is made of horizontal layers that water does not penetrate (except at faults). Only the water in the top layer or two every makes its way back to the surface. These wells are much, much deeper than, for instance, water wells. Anything below that is locked in, basically forever. The problem is that the same is true of the gas, if no fracking were done, a horizontal well would only pull gas from one layer, and quickly go dry. Fracking has been done for a long time, its standard practice. The difference with Marcellus is that the wells are much, much deeper, and its more economical to make one well fan out for huge distances horizontally than to drill multiple wells. Thus, much, much, more water is needed per well. In theory, though, because of the depth, that fluid is much less likely to leach up through. However, depth doesn't do anything to prevent accidents on the surface, like the Washington County incident. Of course, that could have happened with plain old gas wells, too, it whether or not it was the Marcellus formation had little to do with it.
The thickness of the groundwater layer, of course, varies by location. So part of the pre-frac'ing operation is determining the safe depth. The hole is then sealed above that depth, and hopefully a little deeper to provide a margin of safety. The fracking fluid only busts up rock at depth, below any groundwater. It does force faults between layers, allowing gas (and water) to flow between them. The sand holds open those faults so they don't reseal after fracking. With proper engineering, there should be at least one, and usually more, solid, unfractured layers preventing the deep water from reaching groundwater.
The possible modes of failure are obvious. Failure to seal to the proper depth, faulty intelligence (so drilling may occur where there's a natural fault, or they may break too many layers), and equipment failures on or near the surface (such as the protective barrier, pipes, or a spill).
Depth. Groundwater comes only from a layer a certain depth from the surface. Most of the deep earth is made of horizontal layers that water does not penetrate (except at faults). Only the water in the top layer or two every makes its way back to the surface. These wells are much, much deeper than, for instance, water wells. Anything below that is locked in, basically forever. The problem is that the same is true of the gas, if no fracking were done, a horizontal well would only pull gas from one layer, and quickly go dry. Fracking has been done for a long time, its standard practice. The difference with Marcellus is that the wells are much, much deeper, and its more economical to make one well fan out for huge distances horizontally than to drill multiple wells. Thus, much, much, more water is needed per well. In theory, though, because of the depth, that fluid is much less likely to leach up through. However, depth doesn't do anything to prevent accidents on the surface, like the Washington County incident. Of course, that could have happened with plain old gas wells, too, it whether or not it was the Marcellus formation had little to do with it.
The thickness of the groundwater layer, of course, varies by location. So part of the pre-frac'ing operation is determining the safe depth. The hole is then sealed above that depth, and hopefully a little deeper to provide a margin of safety. The fracking fluid only busts up rock at depth, below any groundwater. It does force faults between layers, allowing gas (and water) to flow between them. The sand holds open those faults so they don't reseal after fracking. With proper engineering, there should be at least one, and usually more, solid, unfractured layers preventing the deep water from reaching groundwater.
The possible modes of failure are obvious. Failure to seal to the proper depth, faulty intelligence (so drilling may occur where there's a natural fault, or they may break too many layers), and equipment failures on or near the surface (such as the protective barrier, pipes, or a spill).
afishinado
Moderator
Staff member
PCray,
GREAT explanation. Thanks.
GREAT explanation. Thanks.
