Shale Question

[oncorhynchusmykiss]

Can they drill in state parks, national parks, or forests? Or are they protected?

Tight lines!

 

[bikerfish]

they can drill in allegheny natl forest, the government does not own the mineral rights. that is the only national land in pa within the shale reserve. WV has more natl forest land, not sure what the law is there. state parks and state forests are not safe from this, and that is where my problem is. the state is profiting from drilling on land that belongs to all of us, paid for and maintained with our tax dollars. did anyone from the state ask the taxpayers if this was ok?? this is supposed to be a democracy?? anyways, starting to get off topic there. state lands are fair game to the drillers

 

[reds]

bikerfish
If the state is profitting from drilling on state lands are we not then profitting from this? Also, our say in this occurs when we elect the officials who made the decision to drill there. I am neither for or against drilling on state lands, but this is how a democracy works. We cannot put every issue to a voter referendum and expect government to accomplish anything, it struggles to get anything does as is.

 

[bikerfish]

did your taxes go down? they should have, state is making millions from drilling leases. it's our land, share the profits with the owners. we should be compensated for the destruction of our land, places where we fish, hunt, hike. and why not put it to a voter referendum? many states do it with other issues, why not do it here with drilling? because they are afraid of the result. they stand to lose lots of money. it's all about the money. this is why special interest groups who spend millions lobbying get what they want, while joe taxpayer is expected to just keep doing what he's doing, shut up and pay taxes. that is not democracy.

 

[reds]

No taxes did not go down, instead they did not go up. The choices given were a tax increase or drill. Harrisburg chose to drill. Millions into a budget that is in the billions is not going to lead to money coming back to the citizens of the commonwealth, in any form, other than funding public projects.

As for putting it to a referendum i honestly think the voters would allow more leasing. The average Pennsylvanian is not affected by the degradation of the North Central region of Pennsylvania, in their eyes. Also, the politicians would spin this to the suburbanite voters that this is being done to keep your taxes down and fund government projects in your back yard. Most of the people in Philly and Pittsburgh, who run the rest of the state do not even realize that the woods of North Central Pa exist.

In the end this is important to the people on this forum, myself included, because we utilize these resources. The same could be said for the projects that drilling is funding, public works in areas around the state. Those projects are important to the people which they affect. People will back drilling if it means more money for projects that they care about.

 

[FlySwatter]

Reds,

You're right about the blind spot most city dwellers have towards the northern 2/3 of the state. They are myopic, but then so are most people. It is incumbent upon those of us who ARE paying attention do raise valid concerns.

A democracy is not only defined by periodic elections. That's just the USA's version of it. Do you feel at every election you are choosing the lesser of the evils? Is there such a thing a s a "good" politician (not on the take or beholden to special interests, not only worried about re-election)? We, as concerned and (hopefully) informed citizens must use the only leverage we have to sway our elected officials: threat of not getting re-elected. We do this by communicating with our representatives, not by simply electing the opposition every 2, 4 or 6 years. That's just mindless.

The problem I have with the gas drilling is manifold:

1) The secrecy Halliburton has with their formula. I'd bet they aren't releasing it sue to its overwhelmingly toxic nature.

2) The rush to drill has precluded proper regulations, oversight and waste disposal procedures. It's almost certain there will be significant damage to our ground water and watersheds. We clearly have not learned anything from the coal industries’ environmental baggage.

3) It has not been shown there is a significant net gain in energy. It takes massive amounts of diesel fuel to power the trucks and heavy equipment needed to build and run the drill sites.

4) The positive impact in the PA economy seems to be skewed strongly towards Harrisburg. The well workers I see in my area (north of Scranton) are fro Texas and Aransas, not PA.

5) The promise of "abundant" natural gas reserves seems to have dampened enthusiasm for pursuing alternate fuel sources (non-fossil fuel). It ahs also dampened motivation for behavior modification. In other words, we have this great American fuel source so we don't need to exercise a little restraint in our fuel consumption. We are fuel gluttons.

I could go on, but you get the point. There is not big picture thinking going on. The gas drilling has little to do with you and me, little to do with what's good for America and a LOT to do with greed. If you think otherwise....well, no need to be insulting. We are all being sold a bill of goods on this.

Oh, and as for the idea that it’s OK as long as the state profits, by that rational we are missing out by not having state run or taxes prostitution.

OK, I feel better now.

 

[reds]

Just want to clarify i never said my stance on this subject because i am in the middle of the road. I agree with the first two numbered statements you made flyswatter, especially number two, no arguments. The other three I don't entirely agree with. Actually, number four I disagree with, from what I have seen in Potter County and the windmill project in Bradford and Tioga counties refutes number five, not to mention the insane amount of disturbance associated with it. Also, I never said it was ok because the state profits, I was responding to Bikerfish comments that the state was the only ones profitting. Oh, and I have no issue with legalizing the worlds oldest profession either. Lastly, i agree with a lot of the other statements you made about how democracy works, but ultimately if we threaten to not re-elect and then fail to follow through politics continue as is, and that has been the status quo. I choose from the evil of two lessers, not the lesser of two evils in the elections.

 

[FlySwatter]

Reds,

I wasn't calling you out on your opinions. I was just a little concerned about waiting until the next election to voice our concerns. Once politicians know that, they'll do as they please until the next spin cycle (er, election) comes to pander.

As far as the benefit to PA citizens, I'm looking for job creation and general improvements to quality of life. I'm certainly no expert, but I don't see a direct correlation between gas drilling and jobs. As far as quality of life, well you make the call on that one.

You may be right about the push for alternate energy sources, but without a paradigm shift in our consumption and attitudes, its spitting in the wind (pun intended).

If I sound jaded, it's because I'm a child of the Watergate era.

Coincidentally, so is tricky Dick Cheney (beginning in 1969 he worked in the administration of President Richard Nixon). So, now we can trace much of the evils of the last 8+ years (Iraq war, gas drilling) to Halliburton, tricky Dick. :evil: :evil: :evil:

- Mike

 

[bikerfish]

reds, sorry I didn't clarify, I didn't mean the state was the only one profitting. the drilling companies sure do, as do a handful of pa businesses that serve the drilling industry. yes, the state needs money, or at least they say that. programs are being shut down, infrastructure is crumbling, etc, etc. but flyswatter sums it up when he says this is not thinking about the big picture. this is about a certain few along with our state government that will make a quick buck. but at what cost? what will the cleanup cost us? what about the lost resources that we currently treasure? and why was the state government against the severence tax on drilling? they ARE going to drill for the gas, at least force them to pay for the cleanup, most other states do.
reds, I agree with what you say about the politicians spinning this to appeal to the suburbanite voters, they do it already with many other topics, but that is a whole other discussion! but putting it up for referendum couldn't hurt, let the voters speak their voice, not the special interests.
and your right flyswatter, hailiburton is EVIL. and I used to be a republican!!

 

[oncorhynchusmykiss]

Man this sucks! :-o I think forests and parks should be off limits. One of the worst things is that the poconos are right on top of a large deposit.

 

[bikerfish]

yep, it is a shame. we are going to lose some wonderful places. progress?? not in my book

 

[Buggy]

A large portion of the Marcellus gas produced in PA will not be consumed in PA. It is destined for high population areas in New York, New Jersey, and New England. Why are we trading a short-term economic boom for the potential of long-term environmental problems?

 

[bikerfish]

buggy, it's the american way!!! a quick buck always seems to win out over sustainability.