englishprof
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Too bad for the others!!!!!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42627764/ns/us_news-environment/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42627764/ns/us_news-environment/
bikerfish
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yep, nothing to worry about, and think of all the jobs that were created to poison the earth!!
Acristickid
Well-known member
While it is not great for fishing I know there are benefits of the industry that are beinning to show up in our region.
$650 million rolling mill being built in the rust belt providing 350 jobs at an average wage of $85,000
Do you guys also pick on the dozens of chemical companies (biggest companies in terms of dollar amount exporting out of Allegheny Co.) that have operated in the Pittsburgh region for a hundred years? How about the steel indusrty? No?
$650 million rolling mill being built in the rust belt providing 350 jobs at an average wage of $85,000
Do you guys also pick on the dozens of chemical companies (biggest companies in terms of dollar amount exporting out of Allegheny Co.) that have operated in the Pittsburgh region for a hundred years? How about the steel indusrty? No?
bikerfish
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other industries have to follow rules and laws to operate. the gas industry gets the laws changed to suit their needs and increase profits, the hell with the rest of us.
with the amount of gas available in this state, they should be kissing our ***, not the other way around.
how do you think other industries feel, industries that have followed the rules and spent millions or even billions to be compliant with environmental laws, when they see our state sucking up to the gas industry and changing the rules to favor them.
every other industry must follow national, state and local laws and ordinances, the gas industry gets the federal and state laws changed, and they get a law passed that says they are above any local ordinances, leaving local municapalities, townships, and counties powerless.
with the amount of gas available in this state, they should be kissing our ***, not the other way around.
how do you think other industries feel, industries that have followed the rules and spent millions or even billions to be compliant with environmental laws, when they see our state sucking up to the gas industry and changing the rules to favor them.
every other industry must follow national, state and local laws and ordinances, the gas industry gets the federal and state laws changed, and they get a law passed that says they are above any local ordinances, leaving local municapalities, townships, and counties powerless.
Acristickid
Well-known member
biker- some good points. But I would not be foolish enough to beleive that any larger company that employs 100's of workers in our region that is econmoically depressed get some favors whether in the form of tax breaks, new highway exits built for them and or less regulation of their activities.
Although I would still maintain that this whole indusrty is still in in it's infancy- a tax or fee could/can always be implemented. This shale play is a 50 to 150 year deal.
It is not as though once these companies make a substantial investment in their operations they will pick up and leave as soon as a new governor gets elected in a few years who may not be as favorable to them.
I am in favor of a tax or fee if it is reasonable (perhaps similar to other states that have similar deposits). If nothing else to pay for the regulators to supervise their activities. I certainly want them to follow the rules and have no problem disciplining them with fines or revoking their permit.
We are only fooling ourselves and or frustratrating ourselves if we think this is going to go away. Hardly anyone is looking at this from a fishing perspective. In many ways I support the drilling- PA has to take advantage of this opportunity for new revenue streams to pay for billion dollar state deficits and increased job opportunites. While I am skeptical of the reported impacts in terms of the employment figures of 100,000's of jobs- I certainly would not doubt 10,000's of jobs (again this is just getting started).
It's not as though the drilling started as soon as Corbett was elected (not that I think his PR is very good). Where is any critism for Rendell for even letting the gas companies getting their leases started? Oh yea, lame duck I forgot.
Although I would still maintain that this whole indusrty is still in in it's infancy- a tax or fee could/can always be implemented. This shale play is a 50 to 150 year deal.
It is not as though once these companies make a substantial investment in their operations they will pick up and leave as soon as a new governor gets elected in a few years who may not be as favorable to them.
I am in favor of a tax or fee if it is reasonable (perhaps similar to other states that have similar deposits). If nothing else to pay for the regulators to supervise their activities. I certainly want them to follow the rules and have no problem disciplining them with fines or revoking their permit.
We are only fooling ourselves and or frustratrating ourselves if we think this is going to go away. Hardly anyone is looking at this from a fishing perspective. In many ways I support the drilling- PA has to take advantage of this opportunity for new revenue streams to pay for billion dollar state deficits and increased job opportunites. While I am skeptical of the reported impacts in terms of the employment figures of 100,000's of jobs- I certainly would not doubt 10,000's of jobs (again this is just getting started).
It's not as though the drilling started as soon as Corbett was elected (not that I think his PR is very good). Where is any critism for Rendell for even letting the gas companies getting their leases started? Oh yea, lame duck I forgot.
R
reds
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Akid,
Biker was actually pretty critical of Rendell when he was around. I don't know where the 50 to 150 year play idea comes from, I hear 35 or so pretty regularly from the industry.
I don't know exact numbers or believe any put out on jobs created, I can say that Marcellus shale has created a ton of work for people in jobs like truck driving and equipment operating in the Northern Tier, how long these jobs last is anyones guess, but these are types of employment that are stagnant in other areas of the state. I think the higher paying professional jobs still tend to be going to people from out of the area, but that is catching up and will continue to as people follow educational paths that lead them to professional work in the field. The biggest issue with the type of employment is it is not for people with families, you could be and will be asked to move or work in other areas at the whims of the companies.
the original post had to do with deep well injections which are not happening in PA, due to our geology, we are instead treating the water and dumping it into our rivers which obviously comes with its own set of issues.
Biker was actually pretty critical of Rendell when he was around. I don't know where the 50 to 150 year play idea comes from, I hear 35 or so pretty regularly from the industry.
I don't know exact numbers or believe any put out on jobs created, I can say that Marcellus shale has created a ton of work for people in jobs like truck driving and equipment operating in the Northern Tier, how long these jobs last is anyones guess, but these are types of employment that are stagnant in other areas of the state. I think the higher paying professional jobs still tend to be going to people from out of the area, but that is catching up and will continue to as people follow educational paths that lead them to professional work in the field. The biggest issue with the type of employment is it is not for people with families, you could be and will be asked to move or work in other areas at the whims of the companies.
the original post had to do with deep well injections which are not happening in PA, due to our geology, we are instead treating the water and dumping it into our rivers which obviously comes with its own set of issues.
Acristickid
Well-known member
reds- more good points.
Don't get me wrong I am not shill or blindly supporting the gas industry. I know there are risks for sure but to cry wolf at every turn seems counter productive. It is not as if there are no benefits.
I have no vested interest in gas companys other than being a citizen of the commomwealth that happens to be a devoted fly fisher who has interest in it's impact.
Without doing a mass search of the internet I thought I recalled some figures of 50-100+ plus years. But even if the figures are 30-50 years of drilling, is it not worth it to have a generation or two of 10,000's of thousands of workers employed at higher paying wages than available previously?
If these jobs suck why do people from LA,OK,TX want to leave home and work here? I would think companies will want to cut costs as they always do and employ local residents to accomplish this- especially if there are going to employ folks for 30 years or more.
No question about the truck driving jobs, well prep construction- no shortage of them in the Pittsburgh area.Once more PA residents are trained will be employed at higher paying jobs. Cannonsburg is the gas HQ for this area. They have built buildings in area and are leasing a good deal of office space in the Southpoint office complex. I would say the that the non-drilling office/executive jobs are beginning to show up as well.
I am not expert and maybe I am wrong on some of this but I just dont buy that it is all bad all the time. This state needs some economic boosting.
Don't get me wrong I am not shill or blindly supporting the gas industry. I know there are risks for sure but to cry wolf at every turn seems counter productive. It is not as if there are no benefits.
I have no vested interest in gas companys other than being a citizen of the commomwealth that happens to be a devoted fly fisher who has interest in it's impact.
Without doing a mass search of the internet I thought I recalled some figures of 50-100+ plus years. But even if the figures are 30-50 years of drilling, is it not worth it to have a generation or two of 10,000's of thousands of workers employed at higher paying wages than available previously?
If these jobs suck why do people from LA,OK,TX want to leave home and work here? I would think companies will want to cut costs as they always do and employ local residents to accomplish this- especially if there are going to employ folks for 30 years or more.
No question about the truck driving jobs, well prep construction- no shortage of them in the Pittsburgh area.Once more PA residents are trained will be employed at higher paying jobs. Cannonsburg is the gas HQ for this area. They have built buildings in area and are leasing a good deal of office space in the Southpoint office complex. I would say the that the non-drilling office/executive jobs are beginning to show up as well.
I am not expert and maybe I am wrong on some of this but I just dont buy that it is all bad all the time. This state needs some economic boosting.
R
reds
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Akid,
Not calling anyone a gas shill, other than maybe Franklin, so don't take it that way. I agree on the point of good things coming from gas drilling, I also see the bad, I live in the heart of the other area of the state seeing the type of exploration you are in SWPA. I see the jobs that are going to locals and they are a short term boost, these are the trucking and excavating type jobs, the well pad building and drilling is going on now, but it will slow down or end after 5-10 years, if all goes as planned. The 30-50 year projections have to do with gas production from the wells. All indications are that other gas plays could follow which could extend the drill work.
I do not think these jobs suck, but they are not for family people was my point. I have daily dealings with rig pigs and I can say this is the type of work they are suited for, it is hard, it is dangerous and it is dirty and the hours are irregular and take you where the rig goes, not always in the vicinity of home. Very few people from the traditional drilling areas are relocating, for the most part they work for a period of time here then return home for a period, this is the life of a gas/oil industry rig worker. I have an in law who has done it on off shore rigs for several years. The type of money and work is infectious and hard to walk away from.
Not calling anyone a gas shill, other than maybe Franklin, so don't take it that way. I agree on the point of good things coming from gas drilling, I also see the bad, I live in the heart of the other area of the state seeing the type of exploration you are in SWPA. I see the jobs that are going to locals and they are a short term boost, these are the trucking and excavating type jobs, the well pad building and drilling is going on now, but it will slow down or end after 5-10 years, if all goes as planned. The 30-50 year projections have to do with gas production from the wells. All indications are that other gas plays could follow which could extend the drill work.
I do not think these jobs suck, but they are not for family people was my point. I have daily dealings with rig pigs and I can say this is the type of work they are suited for, it is hard, it is dangerous and it is dirty and the hours are irregular and take you where the rig goes, not always in the vicinity of home. Very few people from the traditional drilling areas are relocating, for the most part they work for a period of time here then return home for a period, this is the life of a gas/oil industry rig worker. I have an in law who has done it on off shore rigs for several years. The type of money and work is infectious and hard to walk away from.
bikerfish
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your right reds, I used to pick on rendell too!!LOL! hey, the guy in the top seat is always the easy target right!!
I know the drilling is here to stay, just gotta make them do it right and with minimal impact. and quit KISSING THEIR ***!!
I also agree that other industries do get certain bennies like tax breaks and so forth, but you just don't hear it happening to the extent that is going on in the gas industry. it would be one thing to give companies a break, maybe a break for employing more pa residents, and establishing local offices, etc.
it's another thing to give them free reign, put people in charge that will let the industry police itself, and not tax them like every other state does.
honestly, if they hit them with a severence tax, are they going to go elsewhere? hell no! we got the gas!!! they will do what it takes to get it.
akid, your right, it's not all bad, but it ain't all good either.
besides, what the hell else would we argue about here!!
I know the drilling is here to stay, just gotta make them do it right and with minimal impact. and quit KISSING THEIR ***!!
I also agree that other industries do get certain bennies like tax breaks and so forth, but you just don't hear it happening to the extent that is going on in the gas industry. it would be one thing to give companies a break, maybe a break for employing more pa residents, and establishing local offices, etc.
it's another thing to give them free reign, put people in charge that will let the industry police itself, and not tax them like every other state does.
honestly, if they hit them with a severence tax, are they going to go elsewhere? hell no! we got the gas!!! they will do what it takes to get it.
akid, your right, it's not all bad, but it ain't all good either.
besides, what the hell else would we argue about here!!
Acristickid
Well-known member
reds- didn’t think you were thinking that, just sorta explain myself further.
biker- no problem, just debating is all.
It is a complicated issue for me to get my arms around. I would'nt even be at home right now much less taking about this stuff on the internet if the streams were fishable.
biker- no problem, just debating is all.
It is a complicated issue for me to get my arms around. I would'nt even be at home right now much less taking about this stuff on the internet if the streams were fishable.
bikerfish
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I hear ya acristickid! not only is everything blown way out, the wind is howling big time!!
Maurice
Administrator
Staff member
There are benefits....only for those receiving jobs directly and those signing leases. Everyone else in the nearby area is at risk with no reward.
Thats a pretty big interest. Your playground is at risk and your playground monitor has her back turned....or at least has given the bullies a free pass. Because they are paid off.
This is just the thing PA needs to kick the economy in the rear and jump start it. But if there is not GUARANTEED return on investment then our government is making a huge mistake.
The workers from LA OK TX are here because they are experienced with the start up....and they are being reduced in numbers down there because they cannot work there anymore because they have trashed the environment. (quoted by a Gas driller to someone I know, bitching about the weather he said why don't you just work in your home state, he said they won't let us because of environmental violations, both in gas and the gulf oil rigs) Range Resources moved/sold 900million in assets from LA/OK to PA because the environmental regs were "easier".
This is good stuff.....no doubt
No one said it was all bad, all the time. We just keep coming up with bad things about it and nothing is being done to thwart the bad...The deck is stacked against the state. Cheney through the Haliburton loophole in 2005 opened the door to reduced regulations.
Corbett is taking every step possible to lessen the review process, hide the violations and reduce the penalties. His governorship was bought for just under 1mil by the Oil and gas lobby.
Every other state has a severance tax, Corbett refuses. Rendell was on board but the R house wouldn't pass it. Sure it was lame duck...so you can say he was just paying lip service...but he said it. And it was ignored.
The state is in a deficit, We have the gas, the golden egg...we have told the giant he can have the golden eggs for nothing. Instead, Corbett is slashing every program in the state, including the very Agency charged with the regulation and policing of this new boom.
We had the opportunity to balance a budget on the backs of the gas industry and threw it away.
Imagine if you had to pay your bills and couldn't....and someone said, hey, you have something I want that could help you pay your bills...but instead of paying you for it like we do everyone else, I just give you some juice and you can go to the poor house.
The budget cuts will likely cost the state close to the numbers of jobs created so far.
Its an opportunity squandered by our past ATTORNEY GENERAL...the guy who was charged with uncovering and prosecuting corruption under Rendell.
The fox has the hen house.....lock stock and barrel. Believe it.
The sky is falling, you bet it is. Anyone trying to rationalize this is fooling themselves. Flat out. This is an I told you so that no one will want to hear. Its not free market capitalism, its corporatism in bed with government.
The pressure placed against this sham albiet sometimes overreaching is necessary to get the attention of the public. Those that rationalize it as over-reaching and unfair are fooling themselves with their own ideals. They have no skin in the game, only philosophical arguments dumbing down the resistance.
anyone on this board should be very afraid of how this is being handled. Anyone in this state should be very afraid. Its that simple.
We are only asking for a reach around...plain and simple. A kiss on the back of the head would do too....
Hold their feet to the fire, make them pay their way, reimburse for damage and wear on infrastructure, completely, and entirely and charge them for the value of the resource rather than giving it away. We live in a commonwealth....where the states resources (ie;water) belong to every citizen especially the state owned lands. NOT THE GOVERNOR. He is charged with making sure the constitution is upheld. He is pissing down our backs and telling us its raining and there are those here who are enjoying the shower.
Lather up guys....
Acristickid
Well-known member
Mo- some more good points.
The old cousins brother overheard a driller talking huh? Gospel.
What does the following mean?
"Its an opportunity squandered by our past ATTORNEY GENERAL...the guy who was charged with uncovering and prosecuting corruption under Rendell." ?
"We had the opportunity to balance a budget on the backs of the gas industry and threw it away." - It aint over yet, a tax can be implemented if that is what you are getting at.
Since were going on politcal slants- I beleive disbanding the state liquor stores and instead sell liquor licenses would create a huge sum of money, not to mention all the tax collect on the increased liquor sales should be used to police the shale play, why not? The we gets the eggs and liquor whenever and where ever we want. You know like the rest of free America.
Again, not totally sold but if the numbers they predict for the numbers employed etc.. it will be worth it. The coal industry came through and we are still fishing, no? Was the coal mining worth it? That probably creating hundreds of PA towns.
Again, no expert but based on the estimates by Penn State 10,000 of thousands employed directly and as many indirectly. Actually think that study mentioned 100,000's of thousands but I will just stick with 10-20% of that figure.
The old cousins brother overheard a driller talking huh? Gospel.
What does the following mean?
"Its an opportunity squandered by our past ATTORNEY GENERAL...the guy who was charged with uncovering and prosecuting corruption under Rendell." ?
"We had the opportunity to balance a budget on the backs of the gas industry and threw it away." - It aint over yet, a tax can be implemented if that is what you are getting at.
Since were going on politcal slants- I beleive disbanding the state liquor stores and instead sell liquor licenses would create a huge sum of money, not to mention all the tax collect on the increased liquor sales should be used to police the shale play, why not? The we gets the eggs and liquor whenever and where ever we want. You know like the rest of free America.
Again, not totally sold but if the numbers they predict for the numbers employed etc.. it will be worth it. The coal industry came through and we are still fishing, no? Was the coal mining worth it? That probably creating hundreds of PA towns.
Again, no expert but based on the estimates by Penn State 10,000 of thousands employed directly and as many indirectly. Actually think that study mentioned 100,000's of thousands but I will just stick with 10-20% of that figure.
Maurice
Administrator
Staff member
It was an environmental lawyer at a bar after a marcellus meeting I met while drinking at hooters...gospel yes.
Tom Corbett was the AG for PA before Governor. While running and holding that office (charged to sniff out and prosecute corruption) he was being paid by the gas drilling industry for campaign financing. Smelly???? smells bad...real bad.
Do you agree that being compensated by the industry you are in charge of regulating is corruption? If so, he is corrupt. at the very least. He is a criminal. This is la Cosa Nostra. in our faces.
And bring the side arguments like the liquer stores is the very watering down I was talking about...another argument for another day.
You are living in a part of the state that is still feeling the effects of coal mine creeks....no trout there...wonder why. you wanna spread that around into the northern tier? Where all the wild trout are?
How about if we make sure SWPA troutless blight doesn't "spread" into trout county before we sign it away...or use the liquer stores as a rationale.
We can only afford to be wrong once with this....there is new stuff turning up every day. all small little nusiances reasoned away but it adds up, to a big steaming pile of poo....And there has been ZERO step back with all the news and evidence...like its not a problem at all.
Who will be to blame if we are right? how will it be handled?
as conservationists we are running around cleaning up soda bottles on the little J when the very aquafers that carry those bottles downstream are at risk and we reason it away.
Eye on the ball my friend...eye on the ball.
Tom Corbett was the AG for PA before Governor. While running and holding that office (charged to sniff out and prosecute corruption) he was being paid by the gas drilling industry for campaign financing. Smelly???? smells bad...real bad.
Do you agree that being compensated by the industry you are in charge of regulating is corruption? If so, he is corrupt. at the very least. He is a criminal. This is la Cosa Nostra. in our faces.
And bring the side arguments like the liquer stores is the very watering down I was talking about...another argument for another day.
You are living in a part of the state that is still feeling the effects of coal mine creeks....no trout there...wonder why. you wanna spread that around into the northern tier? Where all the wild trout are?
How about if we make sure SWPA troutless blight doesn't "spread" into trout county before we sign it away...or use the liquer stores as a rationale.
We can only afford to be wrong once with this....there is new stuff turning up every day. all small little nusiances reasoned away but it adds up, to a big steaming pile of poo....And there has been ZERO step back with all the news and evidence...like its not a problem at all.
Who will be to blame if we are right? how will it be handled?
as conservationists we are running around cleaning up soda bottles on the little J when the very aquafers that carry those bottles downstream are at risk and we reason it away.
Eye on the ball my friend...eye on the ball.
Acristickid
Well-known member
Yea- there is no question it is bad for the fishes.
This is an issue I struggle with no question.
As an aside- it took me till I was 40 years old to really realize that all politicians are corrupt. (they cant help it, the system is setup that way)
Some are alot corrupt and some are just alittle.
This is an issue I struggle with no question.
As an aside- it took me till I was 40 years old to really realize that all politicians are corrupt. (they cant help it, the system is setup that way)
Some are alot corrupt and some are just alittle.
bikerfish
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that pretty much sums it up.
franklin
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Not a shill, somewhat of a devils advocate when the facts or lack of facts, presented don't add up. Take the original point of this thread. People are shocked to see that carcinogens are used in industrial materials. The fact that some carcinogens are used in drilling fluids are old news. You can find threads on this board from some time ago about the contents of drilling fluids and disclosure etc. We all dump carcinogenic substances down our drains and onto our yards all the time. The question is what is the concentration and what is the exposure potential. The drilling trailings that are coming up are much worse than what is going down in the fracking fluids. That is the point of the many threads about treating fracking waste water.
Many posters on this board say they are in favor of drilling but in large part of their issue is the aesthetic impact of drilling. Many raise concerns about the environmental impact but are unable to articulate the concern in more detail. If you were the governor and on one side you had a number of people complaining that it looks bad and is bad for the environment but unable to present detail facts and on the other side was a gas industry that puts forward detailed information and experts that support their claim that they are minimizing impact on the environment who would you believe? Especially if you consulted outside experts that are convinced that the engineering of drilling and producing the gas can be done in a minimally environmentally impacting manor.
