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Re: Who owns the trout?

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2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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ALL flowing water and the fish within are owned by the people, i.e. the public. The people have assigned the task of management to the Commonwealth.

Posted on: 2013/2/28 8:32


Re: Who owns the trout?

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2006/9/11 11:30
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I thought fish and game were wards of the state - not really ownership per se. Some states have exceptions for private clubs that stock.

I also think that the state manages for the benefit of the citizens - not the fish. Therefore, there will be harvest and recreation.

Posted on: 2013/2/28 8:59


Re: Who owns the trout?

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2006/9/18 8:28
From Attitudinally, one mile south of Lake LeBoeuf
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I think the short answer to your question can be found in Social Contract theory and how we have chosen to apply it in our form of government In this sense, we the people own the wild trout of Pennsylvania, which we consent to be managed by an agency we established and empowered to do so, the PAF&BC. When harm is done to the wild trout of this state, we have empowered the Commission to act on our behalf through fines, etc. to remedy or redress these insults.

So, if it is necessary that we establish who “owns” these fish, I think this is the operative answer. We do. You and I.

Admittedly though, it is a bit murky…

I found this interesting:

>I believe that blame for both destruction of natural resources and the destruction of liberty can be laid squarely on the centralization of power in the hands of a few regardless of their good intentions.>

When you speak of the “centralization of power”, do you draw a distinction between the “power” of government and the power of centralized or amalgamated economic interests, such as an entire industry like coal or real estate development? This would be the only way I could agree with what you say in the quote I pulled and pasted above. My belief is that one of the roles of government is to act as a counter to the potential tyranny of centralized private interests.

Posted on: 2013/2/28 9:45


Re: Who owns the trout?

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2013/2/25 11:38
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There is a vast difference between "ownership" and "stewardship". When we are born we come into this world owning nothing and we exit the same way, however we do become stewards of everything around us. How actively we pursue this stewardship and the amount of effort we put towards it is directly proportionate to the well being of the object/s in our care. By assigning that stewardship responsibility to others, we must therefore be willing to accept the direction that it takes (which I think RLeeP has stated).

Since we are ultimately responsible for assigning stewardship responsibilities, we must also share the responsibility of the stewardship results.

"Help us build a better Planet" - IBM
"What's wrong with the one I gave you" - GOD

Posted on: 2013/2/28 12:01


Re: Who owns the trout?

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2012/3/22 8:26
From Couldn't Care Less
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Trout on private property = ownership by property owner

Trout on public property = ownership by the commonwealth

That is how I would look @ it but do agree to some extent w/ RC re: God

Posted on: 2013/2/28 14:36
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Re: Who owns the trout?

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Wild fish and game are definately not the property of the landowner in the US. The landowner owned to fish and game in Great Britain and the United States intentionally broke that model with the common ownership/stewardship model. The frontier people certainly considered game to be common property since they depended on it and fought the British model. Access to the land certainly resides with the landowner. The landowner can determine who can hunt and fish on their land. But the fish and game are not their property. You can chase a wounded deer onto someone else's property - it doesn't become their's once it crosses the line. Similar to water on non-navigable streams. The water itself is always in the public trust - but the landowner determines who can use it on their property. However, the landowner can't degrade the water for those people upstream and down. Unfoirtunately, there have been plenty of exceptions to this.

There are some exceptions for private clubs who purchase birds/fish for sport on their property. I'm fuzzy on those rules since I'm not a club sort of person.

Posted on: 2013/2/28 17:24


Re: Who owns the trout?

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JeffK … I thought the OP was asking opinion.

I was being broad and speaking more in how I think and/or feel and not what the actual law is. IMHO .. if someone has and maintains a tributary on his/her property the trout should be his property as well.

I’m new to this thing but I think there are some private fisheries in the state. Aren’t the fish (trout) their property?

Posted on: 2013/2/28 17:56
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Re: Who owns the trout?

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2011/11/5 14:27
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Hmmm, Evironmentalism has kind turned this on it head on a federal level. The citizens of NC lost access to most of the beach in the recreational National Seashore Park due to 15 pairs of piping plovers because of a law suit by environmentalists and the fact that the current federal administration declined to fight the suits. That means that the current residents of the NC barrier islands, home owners, and fisherman don't have access to most of the beach for most of the year. Executive orders by this administration further state that freshwater lakes and rivers can be declared wildlife sancturaries so in that case even the common wealth and its citizens access and rights to resources maybe superceded by the Federal Government and environmental groups via lawsuits, liberal judges, or simply by executive order. If you want access then you will have to watch the video. Just ask the citizens of the barrier islands in NC that can not even walk on the beach in front of their beach houses. Because the NPS broke its pledge to those citizens to preserve access and not infringe on the way of life and their ability to make a living whether it involves fishing or tourism in order to further the political goals of this administration. This goals can be accomplished not just by creating sanctuaries to please environmentalists, but by passive means in simply declining to fight environmentalist law suits. The common wealth and it citizens would lose access to both the resource and its fish just like the folks on the barrier islands. All it would take is an executive order or a law suit by some enviromental group that determined that a certain lake, river system or something like a protected species found only in spring creeks needed protection then we will all loose access except for federal government biologist and enforcement folks which is basically the case on the barrier islands. A another example that is similar to the summer flounder or spiny dogfish would be to file a law suit declaring the eastern brook trout is endangered and or over harvested and sancturary areas are needed to protect them like the white sea bass in California or draconian fishing regulations like with the flounder or the dogfish based on very poor or junk science created by the enviromentalists and uncontested by the fed. There are numerous ways to accomplish this and the environmental movement is just getting started. If the science and common sense does not get it done then the cite environmental justice which can mean just about anything they want it to mean. If you did any research on enviromental justice it would scare the day lights out of any sportsman.
So to answer you question: The Federal Government owns everything if they deem it necessary. We just have access for now until some politically valuable constituency group says we should not have access. It can also be for our own safety due to global warming and rising seas which is the case at Chincoteague Island. We are simply too stupid to understand that there is a looming enviromental crisis so we need to be protected from ourselves.

Posted on: 2013/2/28 18:00

Edited by LongWader on 2013/2/28 18:15:56
Edited by LongWader on 2013/2/28 18:18:36
Edited by LongWader on 2013/2/28 18:21:54
Edited by LongWader on 2013/2/28 18:22:43
Edited by LongWader on 2013/2/28 18:30:09
Edited by LongWader on 2013/2/28 18:31:56
Edited by LongWader on 2013/2/28 18:37:00
Edited by LongWader on 2013/2/28 18:38:38
Edited by LongWader on 2013/2/28 18:40:36
Edited by LongWader on 2013/2/28 18:42:45


Re: Who owns the trout?

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2012/8/31 14:29
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I don't know what gives us the right to own another wild animal. Governments and people own land, but not the wild animals. I like chromid's idea of stewardship.

http://www.lexisnexis.com/lawschool/s ... ines/html/prop/prop03.htm

Property Law seems to agree.

Posted on: 2013/2/28 18:39


Re: Who owns the trout?

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2008/3/11 9:40
From Lambertville
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Quote:

dave1918 wrote:

I don't know what gives us the right to own another wild animal. Governments and people own land, but not the wild animals. I like chromid's idea of stewardship.

http://www.lexisnexis.com/lawschool/s ... ines/html/prop/prop03.htm

Property Law seems to agree.


That make sense, especially considering, in certain circumstances, a fish can cross a state line.

Some fish can cross the Canadian border without any official identification.

Posted on: 2013/2/28 20:14


Re: Who owns the trout?

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2006/9/11 12:00
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This is actually a great discussion. I feel it's socratic. It seems to have become a progression of logic and precepts. The answers you have to the questions here determine how you think and interpret things. The idea that the 'commons' like water and air and wild animals are held 'in common' and their stewardship is given by the People to the government is a fundamental idea. The idea of a 'commons' and of the 'common good' has actually come under scrutiny lately, and it is unsettling. If it can't be owned, sold and some group of people on Wall Street or the Mercantile Exchange can't make money on it, then it almost isn't real. The only value is from actuarians, accountants and assessors. This discussion goes in a direction that involves logic, not dollar signs. Sadly, rare in this digital age where it seems even emotions are prescribed a market value.

Posted on: 2013/2/28 21:09


Re: Who owns the trout?

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2008/3/11 9:40
From Lambertville
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Quote:

Sylvaneous wrote:
This is actually a great discussion. I feel it's socratic. It seems to have become a progression of logic and precepts. The answers you have to the questions here determine how you think and interpret things.


I agree. My joke about crossing the Canadian border is partly serious. Fish and game are free to cross borders and for me that complicates the issue or concept of ownership or who owns them. I say God owns them and if you don't agree with that, how about mother nature.

Posted on: 2013/2/28 22:27


Re: Who owns the trout?

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2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13481
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Quote:
Trout on private property = ownership by property owner.


That is incorrect. There are multiple reasons. #1 is that free roaming wildlife are all public property. Deer, for instance, are not owned by those who own the ground under them. That owner may control access. But the wildlife itself is public property, and we have granted our government control over management via the social contract. The landowner must still follow management laws (though we sometimes grant them special priveleges in the law, for instance killing deer for crop damage). #2 is that ALL flowing water in the state is owned by the public, so trout in streams are not on private property, they are IN public property.

In the case of a non-navigable stream, a landowner can own the streambed, but the public still owns the water itself. In a navigable stream, the public owns both the streambed and the water.

Now, where this gets a little tricky is stillwater. For instance, a private pond. If you stock fish in a private pond, do you own the fish, or just the access? I dunno. Same goes for raising deer inside a fence, I think. I think management laws still apply in both cases? Which would mean the animals themselves are still owned by the people? How can this jive, for instance, what defines a domesticated farm animal, like a cow, from a deer? Or what separates a "for consumption" fish farm vs. a private recreation pond? I don't know the answers to these questions.

Posted on: 2013/3/1 9:32


Re: Who owns the trout?

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2012/1/13 15:28
From Ferguson Twp.
Posts: 2521
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I'm going to go ahead and bet that fish bought and put in a private pond are going to be considered owned by the person that put them there.

Posted on: 2013/3/1 9:38
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Re: Who owns the trout?

Joined:
2012/8/31 14:29
From State College
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pcray
"There are multiple reasons. #1 is that free roaming wildlife are all public property"

Seems a little sad that wild animals need to be considered property at all. In our society, however, public property is probably the best option for conservation.

Posted on: 2013/3/1 10:25



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