It's not the herons

[Chaz]

Everyone is always complaining about herons, but did you ever notice that they hunt primarily in very shallow water, seldom getting in more than knee deep. I say the habitat is the real problem when it come to heron predation. I say improve the habitat and that means deeper pools and faster water in between will cause us to see fewer heron marks on the trout.
Deeper pools have other benefits, like more places to hide, protection from ice, more big fish habitat and other things.

 

[Fredrick]

Chaz are you refering to what happen on the tully ?

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Chaz,

I totally agree. Which is why in my other post i talked about low water conditions caused by global warming...and the effect this will have on heron predoration. Its true its all about the habitat...but with lowering water tables...i think it will soon be "all about the herons".

 

[wetnet]

Herons do have to eat too. The heron I have mentioned watching wouldn't be killing bigger trout if the water wasn't so low. Lately it's been up a bit, but overall water levels are lower. Wait until the gas well drilling starts and they are permitted to pull water from the streams.

 

[Padraic]

Chaz wrote: I say improve the habitat and that means deeper pools and faster water in between ...

That's great if you are talking about a stream with a gradient. There are a fair number of streams (limestoners like Big Spring and freestoners like Stony and Clarks) that run over level ground. Or should I say seep.

You can dig deep holes in the streambeds, but they'll fill up PDQ. Any improvements you propose have to keep in mind the natural topography. You can't make a stream something it's not, if you want it to be sustainable.

 

[JustFish]

Padraic wrote:

Chaz wrote: I say improve the habitat and that means deeper pools and faster water in between ...

That's great if you are talking about a stream with a gradient. There are a fair number of streams (limestoners like Big Spring and freestoners like Stony and Clarks) that run over level ground. Or should I say seep.

You can dig deep holes in the streambeds, but they'll fill up PDQ. Any improvements you propose have to keep in mind the natural topography. You can't make a stream something it's not, if you want it to be sustainable.

I completely agree with you Padraic...You can fix damage that storms and runoff created but ultimately you can't make a stream something it wasn't meant to be.

 

[troutbert]

The extreme lack of pools and cover so common on many of our streams isn't natural, it isn't the way the streams were "meant to be." It is the result of historical alterations to stream systems. This is true even in forested areas such as state forests and gamelands.

 

[Padraic]

troutbert wrote:
The extreme lack of pools and cover so common on many of our streams isn't natural, it isn't the way the streams were "meant to be." It is the result of historical alterations to stream systems. This is true even in forested areas such as state forests and gamelands.

Agreed. I posted my original message though, because I've seen a lot of well intentioned work done to streams that couldn't possibly benefit from the projects done to them.

Planting cover over streams is almost always a good thing... but trying to create deep holes and pocket water in a stream that has little gradient is doomed to failure.

 

[Maurice]

You can build habitat and relatively deeper pools into streams with a low gradient. These streams are typically widened by extreme flood events. Streamside vegatative stabilization removed from scour of the floodplain exacerbates the problem.

Solution: reconnect the stream with the flood plain build some structure into the channel design and plant, plant, plant. The stream will be a shadow of itself but the flow will be the same, the result will be a much smaller stream with deep plunge pools that will rescour to desired depth and sort gravels through proper bedload transport with every storm event. Unfortunately this is very expensive.

Typically the widened areas are localized and driven by the lack of riparian buffers. Naturally stable stream reaches will demonstrate the characteristics of the "solution" above. Usually with natural rock formations.

The greatest threat to our waterways regarding the degradation of habitat is the frequency and intensity of rain eventsthat cause the widening of the stream channel. Focus has to be placed on upstream land management and abatement of severe scouring floods. There are ways to minimize these effects but the easy solution is to build stream structure that can handle the excessive flows by transporting the bedload properly. Unfortunately some will always end up on the floodplain and further disconnect the stream/floodplain relationship.

I am speaking of freestone streams in valley floors. Narrowing where practical will always produce beneficial habitat for trout and thwart the Heron factor.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Narrowing and reconnecting the stream with the natural flood plain is a wonderful thing. If you havent yet you guys should open the post about Lititz Run and the restoration project they did on the Banta Property. Exactly the same thing they did there to help remove some of the legacy silt. I think its in the conservation section. Anyways...good stuff all :-D

ya here it is

lititz run

 

[Woolybugger]

Everything said makes a lot of sense, especially what Maurice said.
But there is something that no one will talk about:

Fresh water is decreasing all over the planet. Soon people will be killing for fresh water! Overpopulation, Climate Change, and Pollution are changing things very fast.

Every stream in PA is lower than it was only 10 years ago. Even after a good rain, the stream will rise for a day, but drop to trout killing levels. I think the feeder streams are putting out less water flow. And the rain is screwed up now. Floods and droughts are what we have now. The trees are knocked down and blacktop is everywhere..... so all the stinkin' nitrates will wash in the creeks.

The Yellow Breeches and Muddy Creek have been drying up for the last ten years. Even if channels were dug and rocks put on the sides, the streams are just too shallow.

Mountain Creek, south of Carlisle, was a trout paradise twenty years ago! They broke the upstream dam about 20 years ago and knocked down all the stone bridges and replaced with concrete crap. Now Mountain Creek is a almost dried up ditch.

Same thing with east PA. I grew up in Doylestown and went to school at Central Bucks. Mill Creek was a gem of a trout stream. Now Mill Creek is a dried up mud ditch!! The Neshamany was a warm water paradise back then... now look at it!

Too many houses, too much blacktop, too many people.

I've caught many trout, MC and Breeches, with heron marks...... even big trout, 12" or more. The Susquehanna has a lot of cormarants and herons and ospreys to kill as many fish as they can.

I see horrible changes. It makes me sad, but I still like to flyfish, so I downsize my stuff and always catch and release. I wouldn't eat any fish from PA waters anymore!! Even in our wonderful trout streams I have caught rockbass and chubs with fungus on them.

Vent over! Back to tying flies when the weather warms up next week.

 

[Hook_Jaw]

I saw more predators on the stream this year then I ever have in a year I did not go out once without seeing more then one heron, crane or hawks all though Im sure many of you did aswell.

 

[troutbert]

During droughts, I see a lot more predatory birds out there on the streams. My theory is that when the water gets low on the streams, it's easy pickings for them, so they move from lakes and ponds to the streams during that time. When the streams are high, they probably have better success on the lakes and ponds.

But as described before, if the streams have really good pool habitat and overhead cover, from undercut tree roots, leaning trees, downed trees and log jams, the fish have places to survive predators. Many stream sections have groomed banks, including stream sections on public lands, where the landowners know better, or should.

On groomed lawns sections of streams, there tends to be less pools and poorer quality pools, because the woody debris is an important factor in pool formation. Also you have less escape cover, because you eliminate the features named above.

 

[littlejuniata]

you nailed it wooley, one of Spring Creeks trips, Slab Cabin Run used to hold wild trout, now it goes dry every summer, but they just keep building. The recent ruling on "intermitent " streams just adds to the problem! I don't know the answer but public sewage systems are a BIG BIG part of stream fluctuations, what do they do in other countrys?

 

[Maurice]

littlejuniata wrote:
you nailed it wooley, one of Spring Creeks trips, Slab Cabin Run used to hold wild trout, now it goes dry every summer, but they just keep building. The recent ruling on "intermitent " streams just adds to the problem! I don't know the answer but public sewage systems are a BIG BIG part of stream fluctuations, what do they do in other countrys?

They send raw sewage directly into the waterways.

 

[JackM]

I find it hard to resist the temptation to remind everyone that water is a resource of human life and modern society and as cold-water or even warm-water anglers, we represent a minority user-base. Additionally, even among those of us who enjoy fishing in our rivers, streams and brooks, many people feel that the recreational fishing usage is not exactly the most weighty interest competing for the right to make use of the resource.

 

[JustFish]

littlejuniata wrote:
you nailed it wooley, one of Spring Creeks trips, Slab Cabin Run used to hold wild trout, now it goes dry every summer, but they just keep building. The recent ruling on "intermitent " streams just adds to the problem! I don't know the answer but public sewage systems are a BIG BIG part of stream fluctuations, what do they do in other countrys?

Unfortunately that is why big companies move to China, India etc...because they can just dump their waste right into the river. I know from working at one. All Pharmacuatical companies have production facilities in China and India and other countries who don't care about their waterways. I couldn't imagine in this country putting waste like methanol, hydrocloric acid, tert-methyl-butyl-ether, tolulene, acetone, heptane, nitric acid, ethyl acetate and a million other carcinogens, mutigens, acids etc...that cost a boat load of money to get rid of in this country.

I never knew much about this stuff untill I worked for a major Pharma company learned how they do things in this country vs. other nations that don't care about their natural resources. It really makes you sick to realize that one factor of jobs being lost here are do to the fact they can move to India or China and dump their waste right into the river systems. Food for thought...you have a 55 gallon drum of chemical waste...here it could cost anywhere from $250-$500 dollars to get rid of it...China or India...free. I know where I used to work we could have 40-50 drums a day and we were a small scale facility.

Most people on here I am sure haven't had the opportunity to see this. I have and thought I would share this info with you guys.

On the large scheme of things we are actually doing great. That doesn't mean of course we should just let things go and consider ourselves fortunate. But compared to other countries our waterways are great.

 

[Maurice]

Thanks for the reminder.....Jack

 

[JackM]

Maurice wrote:
Thanks for the reminder.....Jack

Just doing my part....Maurice

 

[LouM]

For the last two years I have watched the hurons work the Little Lehigh in the Heritage section. Two years ago there were four herons working the creek as the fish population dropped so did the number of birds. I watched one huron take 6 trout in 15 minutes across the creek from where I was fishing.This year there is only 1 working the creek. Many of the remaining Trout Have scars from the hurons. The fish population is way down, although I don't think it is all the work of the hurons they surely are a major contributing factor. The other things are the number of flooding events that have silted in the streanbed.