Friends!!!

[Cynic]

From the Reading thread -

"The more friend these places have the better off they will be.
steve"

We see the above statement quiet often on these fly fishing forums and if you attend TU, FFF, and other meetings of Conservation Org. you hear it there.

Question: To preserve or restore a cold water fishery, how many friends does the fishery require to offset just 1 enemy?

 

[RLeeP]

>Question: To preserve or restore a cold water fishery, how many friends does the fishery require to offset just 1 enemy?>

3 and 5/16ths, so long as one of them has a recording of a tree falling in a forest when there's nobody there to hear it...

Or to put it another way, I guess I don't understand the utility of the question.

Much depends upon the respective size and power of the friends and enemies in the instant situation, I should imagine. If the enemy is one poacher in a special regs area, he can probably be offset through the efforts of a minimal amount of friends.

If on the other hand, the "enemy" is a multi-billion dollar corporation, you're gonna need a lot more guys. Maybe a lawyer too, although one would hope something like this could be resolved without resorting to the more unsavory elements out there...



Is this the sort of stuff you were looking for?

 

[JackM]

Until lawyers got to work, the Little J was private. :-x

 

[RLeeP]

>>Until lawyers got to work, the Little J was private.>>

Absolutely right and a good point, Jack..

Of course, on the other hand, until various and sundry agencies of the Commonwealth got involved, the lawyers were mostly standing around sorting their briefs, so to speak...

All in good fun. My best fishing buddy's an attorney. We often talk about the over saturation problem.

I have much respect for the profession.

 

[steveo]

I'm an optimist deep down so I tend to believe that given half a chance most people will, given a choice, do the right thing. I know that's terribly short sighted and even stupid at times. Yeah, I've been burned by my faith in humanity at times but I've also been pleasantly surprised. I believe in hope. I also believe that 90% of fly fishers actually care more about the resource more than they care about how many fish they catch.

 

[troutbert]

What's your view on the topic, Cynic?

 

[Cynic]

My conclusion is that: the enemy is winning. Big Time.

 

[TimMurphy]

Cynic wrote:
My conclusion is that: the enemy is winning. Big Time.

Dear Cynic,

Why am I not surprised by that? You have all of what, 32 posts here?

Please don't tell me that you ever, not even once on a bad day, ever used any information that you have read on this board. For if you did, I'd have to say that you are even more full of crap than you really are and that would be saying something.

You remind me of the doom and gloom people who post that the world is dying because of over-population.

Quit the talk and do the right thing just do yourself. Spare the rest of us all the whining self-indulgent and self-important drag because we don't care.

Trust me on this, nobody will miss you and you will be saving the Planet too!

Regards,
Tim Murphy

 

[afishinado]

Cynic wrote:
"My conclusion is that: the enemy is winning. Big Time."



Tim Murphy wrote:
"Dear Cynic,

Why am I not surprised by that? You have all of what, 32 posts here?

Please don't tell me that you ever, not even once on a bad day, ever used any information that you have read on this board. For if you did, I'd have to say that you are even more full of crap than you really are and that would be saying something.

You remind me of the doom and gloom people who post that the world is dying because of over-population.

Quit the talk and do the right thing just do yourself. Spare the rest of us all the whining self-indulgent and self-important drag because we don't care.

Trust me on this, nobody will miss you and you will be saving the Planet too!

Regards,
Tim Murphy"





Dear Mr. Murphy,

IMHO, Cynic has as much of a right to voice his opinion (as hard as it is to understand some time) on this board as you or me - whether you agree or disagree, or just don’t like what he has to say. He attacked no one, didn’t use foul language, stayed on topic, and does not fish worms with gang hooks on wild trout streams (at least to our knowledge). Actually YOU broke the rules with YOUR personal attack – not him.

As far as posters having to “earn their stripes” with many posts to voice an opinion - I’ve never believed in that. It matters not to me if the poster has 3, 30, 300 or 3000 posts. I, and I believe many other board members, filter the value and validity of the information based on the history, or lack thereof, of a poster. And if you don’t like what an individual writes, just don't read their posts. A diverse collection of people with different opinions, knowledge and skills adds spice to site, IMO. YOUR posts certainly add to the diversity of opinions!

Given that you posted at 1:45 am on a Friday night, it’s likely that more than a few Yuenglings were involved when you went on your rant. I’m sure when you sleep it off, and have you morning cup of Joe, the world will be a much friendlier place. Straighten up and fly right Murphy!

 

[troutbert]

Cynic,
So, are you a friend or an enemy?

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear afishinado,

Trust me when I say I know what I wrote and I meant every word of it.

I'm sick and tired of these "people are ruining everything/people don't do enough" debates. They are boring and never really address any substantial issues, yet they persist?

The door don't swing both ways despite how some people seem to think it does.

Regards,
Tim Murphy

 

[afishinado]

Tim,

Okay brother……


Cynic,

I’ll play – “To preserve or restore a cold water fishery, how many friends does the fishery require to offset just 1 enemy?”


On Beaver Run one friend – I picked up trash last week on my way back to my truck.

On Ridley it took four friends to defeat the enemy – Fredrick and his posse.

On Valley Creek – thousands of friends. 700+ members of Valley Forge TU including some wealthy, influential and hard working people, along with several other conservation groups and concerned citizens, and the several federal and state agencies including the PF&BC. In addition to save the stream it took/takes funds numbering in the millions of dollars raised through donations, grants, and dollars from the clean-up fund.

One can make a difference, but sometimes it takes thousands of people and millions of dollars.

Okay, I answered your question - what point are you trying to make?

 

[Chaz]

Cynic,
You failed to answer the question yourself and further you failed to answer another persons question for you. So I will ask again, How would you nswer your own question? Who do you view as the enemy?
I myself tend to be less extreme, I don't view people as enemyies of streams, most people who would damage a stream do it out of ignorance. Our job as conservationists is to EDUCATE the public in general, but most specifically the people who have the power to enforce the Commonwealth's Constitution. And if the law isn't right on the subject educate these folks to make it right.

As to stream laws specifically; and I'm sure I'll get an argument on this, there can be NO TAKING, the streams belong to the Commonwealth for all to enjoy. I believe if you want to talk about TAKINGS related to streams, the "TAKINGS" happen when someone degrades a stream or otherwise makes it unfit for protected activities such as boating, swimming, fishing, or most importantly drinking.

As to how many people does it take to protect a stream the lowest common demoniator is 1, because if 1 person speaks out he may find 1 listener, if another speaks out then you have 2, if still another speaks out, as Arlo would say "you have a movement." You see I'm your antithisist, I am an optimist.

 

[cce114]

Cynic wrote:
My conclusion is that: the enemy is winning. Big Time.

I'd have to disagree.

- 100 years ago there wasn't a potable gallon of water in what would later become Sproul State Forest due to deforestation.... seeing a deer in the state of PA was a cause for celebration.

- 50 years ago, AMD went unchecked, and companies weren't fined for destroying miles of streams.

- 20 years, Norfolk wouldn't of even received a fine for destroying Portage Creek.

- You could go on and on with examples.

Today, you have the Growing Greener Fund, formerly dead streams and rivers being restored or working towards being restored (North Branch of the Potomac, Spring Creek, West Branch of the Susquehanna, etc., etc.), industrial regulations, C&R fishing regulations, etc, etc, etc.

Concerning cold water fisheries at least, I'd say we are now living in the golden area.

 

[Cynic]

Chaz,

Have been away for most of the weekend. I'll look at each question presented by each poster to try to answer them by tomorrow as I have to rake the leaves out of the yard for the service which will be picking them up tomorrow.

One quick answer. I did not ask the question with an answer in mind. I wanted to hear the positions of various people.

If ones counts writing letters I have been a "friend" of trying to preserve and restore trout fisheries, mostly, for 47 years. Been involved in channelization, culvert and pipe contruction and placement issues on streams, having some large gullies - almost the size of strip mines - filled, in addition to a few stream improvement projects/initiatives. When I had leadership positions in our Org., quiet a few people called on me to report violations to the authorities - which I enjoyed doing!

Enemies - like Counties and Incorporated Jurisdictions channelizing without permits, dischargers not meeting their permit requirements.

 

[Maurice]

Cynic wrote:
From the Reading thread -

"The more friend these places have the better off they will be.
steve"

We see the above statement quiet often on these fly fishing forums and if you attend TU, FFF, and other meetings of Conservation Org. you hear it there.

Question: To preserve or restore a cold water fishery, how many friends does the fishery require to offset just 1 enemy?

It only ever takes enough friends, Anything more is wasteful.

 

[troutbert]

Cynic,
It sounds like you've been a friend of trout streams. And that's a good thing. The importance of friends is very important when it comes to channelization, an issue you mentioned. Here's some examples to show why.

Example one. Famous Stream. Some years ago I reported a channelization on Spring Creek. The PFBC responded immediately, and the Conservation District got involved too. The channelizers got fined, not a huge amount, but when the law shows up it gets people's attention and they start to reconsider the idea of running machinery up and down the creek. They agreed to not do it again, and they later agreed to have riparian buffers along their section of the stream. Clearwater Conservancy organized a tree planting day and loads of people showed up and got them planted, so the situation is greatly improved.

Example Two, Not Famous Stream. I spotted a bulldozer reaming out the channel on a productive, but obscure trout fishery. I called the PFBC. The WCO would not even talk to the perpetrators. I called the WCO's boss. He said "Who are you representing?" with a mocking, sneering tone of voice. He knew that almost nobody knew about or cared about this stream, so he knew that they didn't have to do anything. So they didn't. That's the way it works.