Blue Lining

[afishinado]

Great article about the basics of how to read maps, plan, recon and explore PA blue line wild trout streams.

http://www.flytyermike.com/2020/02/line-like-beast-next-level-small-stream.html?m=1&fbclid=IwAR16Z2pB1SOMHBkcrCeKkBGuXNGUuWL4jWIZuxB84z1mBP-Ma4Ivbg6gqfc

 

[k-bob]

Nice article and I agree with the emphasis on stream gradient/steepness. If you look up the free online pdf of the psu study shown below, it shows that steeper small PA brookie streams were found to have higher brook trout density - see lower part of figure 11/p41, which gives the gradient info. Study did a nice job of studying streams screened to avoid significant acidity issues from mining or low buffering bedrock, so you can see the gradient/steepness issue without those acidity issues radically changing the the brookie density.

To calculate gradient of a stream stretch, you can tweak the base map of the basic pgc/game commission interactive map of pa to "usa topo" (hit icon that looks like four sqaures at far upper right to change base map), and then use its ruler icon/ measurement tool (with unit changed to feet).

https://pagame.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=bf057e56bdf24fc7ae5f9e6ff5609b34

For ex., if a stream stretch takes 2000 ft of travel to change elevation 100 ft., the gradient of that stream section is 100/2000 or 5%. Going by figure 11 of the study shown below, 5% is good versus a flatter stream stretch. If doable, I'd walk to a steeper 4 or 5% stretch versus fishing a flatter one that may be lower down a hillside.

https://etda.libraries.psu.edu/files/final_submissions/1310

 

[Swattie87]

Good article. Not easy, but that methodology is the general recipe to success for this sort of thing. Being good at planning and researching is equally as important (if not more) as the actual FFing part of it.

It's not easy and the success rate is relatively low, even for someone who knows what they're doing, like the author.

Out of 10 new small streams I check out, on average maybe 1 turns out to be a smash hit. Maybe another 3 or 4 are decent...If I'm in that area I'd fish them again, or as a backup plan for the day, but I won't necessarily target them again. The other 5 or 6 are duds for one reason or another...lack of fish, poor habitat, poor access, poor water quality, etc. Bottom line, you gotta enjoy the search piece of things to really enjoy this kind of fishing, as you're gonna strike out more than you hit HR's.

 

[sarce]

Awesome article - I wholeheartedly second the recommendation to create lists ahead of time. I do that in MD - in 2018 alone I added over 20 new wild trout streams to my "inventory". I prioritize the unknown streams by expected access type (public, unposted private, or posted private), and group them by proximity to a known stream that I enjoy fishing. That way, when inevitably some turn out to be busts, I know where I can go to save the day (if I desire - some days, pure exploration is just fine with me!).

I also think if you are looking at Google maps, there's zero use for the default view. I use terrain view and satellite view exclusively when scouting for new streams. Better yet is Google Earth, where you can use the clock button at the top of the screen to go back and forth and find older imagery that may have been taken in winter when leaves do not obscure the stream.

Another technique I use is to create google maps of areas I intend to explore. Include parking areas, hiking trails, and the streams of interest. These can be loaded onto your cell phone and used for navigation between streams. Works well here in MD where cell coverage is pretty good, but may not work as well in PA.

If you have GIS skills and software, that opens up a whole new world...you can make the "Beast" techniques in the article look like child's play.

 

[krayfish2]

Thought this is one you gemmie guys would enjoy. I actually watched it. Lol

 

[kb3lms]

With Blue Lining, what concerns me is private property that isn't posted. Nothing in my area is public property to any extent. Have people had problems with being asked to leave streams or is it more that if land isn't posted landowners don't seem to care too much?

I've been looking at a local stream listed as a Class A that has zero public land. It never gets fished. Some of it is posted and most of it isn't but the big question is does anyone really care if the stream gets fished respectfully in the non-posted areas? (ie staying at the stream and not traipsing around the property and leaving a bunch of trash. ) What I have seen is that land that is posted is AGRESSIVELY posted with signs every 10 feet or so. Plus, I think most of the owners with posting are more concerned about hunting, at least around here anyway.

I second Google Earth. You can also get all of the PFBC (and many other agencies) KMZ layers which makes it a great tool.

 

[silverfox]

kb3lms wrote:
With Blue Lining, what concerns me is private property that isn't posted. Nothing in my area is public property to any extent. Have people had problems with being asked to leave streams or is it more that if land isn't posted landowners don't seem to care too much?

I've been looking at a local stream listed as a Class A that has zero public land. It never gets fished. Some of it is posted and most of it isn't but the big question is does anyone really care if the stream gets fished respectfully in the non-posted areas? (ie staying at the stream and not traipsing around the property and leaving a bunch of trash. ) What I have seen is that land that is posted is AGRESSIVELY posted with signs every 10 feet or so. Plus, I think most of the owners with posting are more concerned about hunting, at least around here anyway.

I second Google Earth. You can also get all of the PFBC (and many other agencies) KMZ layers which makes it a great tool.

I highly recommend OnX hunt for finding property owner information. There are other methods too, but OnX is pretty reliable. I personally only fish private property when I have express permission to do so. To each his own in this regard, but I just think it's best to ask. To me, it's either public or it's not. If it's not public, signed or not, I think you should get permission.

 

[kb3lms]

I tend to agree with you about the private property. Best to have permission.

OnX looks interesting. I'll have to look into it. Thanks!

 

[Bamboozle]

Almost 20 years ago, I created my own maps, along with unique waypoints by county, marking section limits and access points on every Class A, almost all of the Natural Reproduction and even all of the Special Regulation sections and Stocked Trout streams in the more than 40 PA counties I frequent.

I created the maps on both Delorme Topo USA and in various Garmin topo maps, I have installed on both my computer and my Garmin GPS units.

It was a tremendous amount of work taking years of effort (and still requiring updating), but it was well worth the time because in an instant, I can decide what county I plan to fish and load my waypoints to a GPS when I travel to that county.

What I will tell you from experience is there is NO one single source for accurately when it comes to maps, especially with intermittent streams that often don’t even appear. In many cases, the only way I could find a stream was to use several maps and/or finding a stream by finding its mouth, based on the coordinates furnished by the PFBC Natural Reproduction lists.

Sometimes the maps are WAY off due to natural relocation of the streambed or bad cartography so I had to draw the stream on the map myself and make corrections if and when I finally made a visit. In addition, many times maps label a stream incorrectly so you get confused if you are using a list (with a different stream name) to corroborate your map findings.

When actually fishing remote locations, I still prefer a handheld GPS to a phone for numerous reasons in addition to having the ability to load MY researched waypoints into it with ease.

As far as private property goes, that is part of my advance research too. If I planned to fish a particular stream, I’d look for access points on my maps and create a waypoint and do my due diligence in regards to ownership. Sometimes I couldn’t be sure until I got there or asked, but I always have a B, C & D plan of alternate places to fish because no matter how much research you do in advance, you can never be 100% accurate.

After a visit, I determine access for sure and update the access waypoint in my GPS using a color code system I created which lets me know at a glance if I could fish without asking, with permission or not at all.

Bottom line, there is no bigger waste of time in fishing than reconnoitering for new places so anything and everything you do in advance means more time on the water. That also includes reconnoitering many streams in a geography on the same day, even if you are only planning to fish one of them.

When time is short, you’ll be glad you took the time in advance!!

 

[salmonoid]

kb3lms wrote:
With Blue Lining, what concerns me is private property that isn't posted. Nothing in my area is public property to any extent. Have people had problems with being asked to leave streams or is it more that if land isn't posted landowners don't seem to care too much?

I've been looking at a local stream listed as a Class A that has zero public land. It never gets fished. Some of it is posted and most of it isn't but the big question is does anyone really care if the stream gets fished respectfully in the non-posted areas? (ie staying at the stream and not traipsing around the property and leaving a bunch of trash. ) What I have seen is that land that is posted is AGRESSIVELY posted with signs every 10 feet or so. Plus, I think most of the owners with posting are more concerned about hunting, at least around here anyway.

I second Google Earth. You can also get all of the PFBC (and many other agencies) KMZ layers which makes it a great tool.

The letter of the law is that PA is an implied consent state when it comes to trespass, meaning if you aren't told (verbally, via a sign, etc.) that land is closed to trespass, you can imply it is open. That does not mean it still isn't a good idea to try and touch base with a landowner and obtain explicit permission, but the law is on your side to fish the unposted Class A stretch. It is NOT on your side to stay in the stream and fish through the posted stretch. It might be on your side if the stream has been deemed navigable, but while many streams in PA were historically used for commerce and therefore would be considered navigable, very few have had the court battles fought to get that official designation. And only the legal designation is going to get you the right to be on the stream below the high-water mark if the banks are posted.

It's not too hard to figure out who owns land in PA. In some cases, where the landowners live on the land, a door knock works fine. But, in the case where the land is owned by an absentee landlord (think someone who lives out of state, or a holding company that manages land on behalf of a natural resource company), you might have to do a little more legwork to find out how to contact the landowner. For instance, a timber holding company might be a legal subsidiary of an out-of-state lumbering company, but may have a resident manager in PA that is responsible for the land. I once used the PA Hunter Access Program website to figure out the individual responsible for a holding company's land (which was a subsidiary of an out-of-state lumber company) and used that individual to ascertain permission for what was permitted on their land. I also contacted the parent company of another holding company, received a response back from none other than the president of the company, who informed me that the land was leased to a hunting club. He provided me contact info for the lease holder, which I also contacted, and was summarily denied access to fish the stream in question, "because it wouldn't be fair to the people that paid all that money to fish the stream", which made me realize that the lease was more than just a hunting lease, or just a convenient excuse to keep everyone off. In another case, a church camp might have a legal entity that owns the land, but contacting the camp director would put you in conversation with someone who could give you permission to fish the church camp's land. In some cases, you can probably assume that access is ok, without contacting the landowner (think Clark's Creek above and below the reservoir - the land is owned by the Capital Region Water Authority and it's stocked trout water and where you not allowed, there is ample signage to say keep out). I'm currently trying to get to the bottom of access for some land that has at least four different sets of signs on it - one is the PFBC, Fishing Permitted sign (no fires, or overnight camping), the second is that a permit is required, the third is No Hunting, land leased to XXX Hunting Club, and the fourth are two lone No Trespassing signs, also noting that the land is leased to XXX Hunting Club.

Regardless of whether you have explicit permission to be on a stream, always carry yourself in a manner that gives a landowner no reason to not allow you back. Don't permanently alter anything. Don't open gates and not close them. Don't litter. Don't start campfires. Doing those "don'ts" are all ways to make sure that a landowner that maybe previously was indifferent to posting land changes their minds and puts up the yellow rectangles or purple paint lines. Having the conversation about access and making an acquaintance might be the difference between signs going up without notice, and the landowner giving you a chance to help clean up a mess. Also, don't assume that because you think a landowner is posting their land for hunting, that their intent is to allow fishing. Ask them. "I thought they only meant no trespassing for hunting" isn't going to be a valid defense in court.

 

[StreamBottom]

krayfish2 wrote:
Thought this is one you gemmie guys would enjoy. I actually watched it. Lol

Nice find Kray!
I've done part of the BFT, but never the entire loop.

Fishing "blue lines" is by far my favorite, for all the same reasons everyone here loves them; the wild fish, the wild environment, the solitude, maybe shared with just your trusted fishing partner.

And IMO combing that with backpacking is Nirvana.

As licensed land surveyor, I can geek out with the best of them, when it comes to Google Earth KMZ files, GIS and GPS, but I'm also old enough to still have a nostalgic love of folded topo quads or a Delorme atlas marked up with notes and dates along the blue lines that were worth marking up.

Thanks for the links Afish and Kbob.

 

[kb3lms]

Good post. What you state above is also what I have learned about the trespassing laws in PA. I my area, and probably everywhere I guess, the corn fishermen leave a lot of crap laying around. Picking some of that stuff up on your way out ought to help maintain goodwill and is the right thing to do. Actually, what got me to start doing it was being with other people that picked up the junk because I felt bad that I didn't at first, which changed quickly.

I also would think that if you do get on to un-posted (or posted) private property, and an owner says something to you about it, apologize, be polite and ask if you can fish. If they say "no", then leave without further ado. If they see you are polite and respectful, they might decide it is ok to let you fish.

So, when looking at blue lines, what do you consider an "access point"? I've always figured bridges were fair game. What about where a creek is tightly paralleled by the road?

 

[Bamboozle]

So, when looking at blue lines, what do you consider an "access point"? I've always figured bridges were fair game. What about where a creek is tightly paralleled by the road?

To me, an access point is anywhere I can get to a creek from a road since I will be driving as close as possible to said creek before embarking.

That can be a bridge, a parallel road, RR tracks or a trail head. In the case of roads, I always survey the elevation change on a topo map between the road and the stream. As folks that fish in Tioga & Potter know, you need to choose your paths to the creek from a road wisely. What looks like a nearby road on a map can be almost a sheer drop.

You also need to plan your exit, especially if you plan to fish until dark. I always look for an easy way off a stream while it is still light, hopefully with a manageable grade back to a road, trail or my access point.

Again thinking of places in North-Central PA, there are some places I frequent that used to take me over an hour and a half of wading back down the same stretch I fished because, where I ended up when I quit was in such a deep canyon that there was NO WAY to hike out. Now I plan my outings by skipping those sections unless I have enough time to fish up to a place where I can get off easily.

As far as permission goes, nobody needs to be reminded that access to the little waters in PA is a privilege, not a right! Assume anything else and expect more posting and less access. Expect nothing and do whatever you can to ask BEFORE fishing or move on elsewhere and you will be OK.

Think of it as your property and how you would want someone to respect that. You wouldn't want to come home and find someone having a picnic on your front lawn or borrowing you lawnmower without asking, would you...?

...why is fishing any different in the don't be a ******** arena?

Case in point: A Class A runs through my property. My property ISN'T presently posted. If someone came up to my house and asked me if they could fish, I most likely would say yes, give them a beer and join them.

If I stumbled upon someone fishing who espoused the "implied consent" BS, I'd kick them off and put up signs the same day and patrol going forward.

 

[NMR]

If I knowingly purchased property on a trout stream, I'd probably expect at some point to see trout fishermen on account of that's what tends to happen on trout streams.

Nobody called it "blue lining" back then, but I learned to fish for natives from my pap, and I'm preettttyyy certain he didn't have OnX or whatever.

I knew to always carry a trash bag and never walk *through* someone's property, but the stream was the stream. Too rational for today's times, I suppose.

 

[troutbert]

This is my favorite kind of fishing.

You can make it as simple or complicated as you want.

I also spend a lot of time looking at online maps and satellite imagery.

But for decades I've fished these streams with just a state forest map (free). It worked well then, and still does.

The map shows you public lands (state forests and gamelands) and the streams running through them.

You just pick a section, park and fish.

I prefer sections with no roads paralleling the stream, or if there is a road paralleling the stream, it is running up above the stream, not down in the floodplain.

The reason for this is that where roads are down in the floodplain, they screw up the path of the stream and the physical structure (habitat). The streams were straightened and relocated and the secondary channels eliminated when they built the road. And often these stream sections are channelized regularly to try to reduce flooding of the floodplain road.

Where streams are unconstrained by roads they tend to have better physical habitat.

Regarding the best time to fish these streams, it's definitely not in the winter.

It's from about the second week of May through the summer and into early fall.

The freestoner fish caught in the winter tend to be thin. You can see that in his photos.

If you have a "good water year" where there is plenty of rain through spring and summer, the trout get fat as pigs.

 

[Mike]

That’s a very good thesis.

Blue liners, be forewarned in your search....

While that thesis deals with factors the influence wild ST density, another peer-reviewed paper out of PSU in part addressed the topic of landscape influences on the densities of harvestable length ST. Among other things, it involved a retrospective analysis of long-term PFBC data sets for ST streams that had been sampled at least four to seven times ( years ) on the Appalachian Plateau and Ridge and Valley provinces. The inability of streams to buffer against acid episodes was the main landscape related variable that influenced legal ST abundance. Watersheds with streams that didn’t support legal ST were underlain by sandstones in general and the Pottsville Formation in particular. Utisol soils impacted the streams in the same way.

Kocovsky, P. M., and R. F. Carline. 2006. Influence of Landscape-scale Factors in Limiting Brook Trout Populations in Pennsylvania Streams. Trans. Am. Fish. Soc. 135(1): 76-88.

 

[k-bob]

"Watersheds with streams that didn’t support legal ST were underlain by sandstones in general and the Pottsville Formation in particular."

mike yes, I fish NEPA and pottsville bedrock is negative (also burgoon & allegheny). Combining ideas of 2 psu studies in thread, I might seek steep-ish streams not draining pottsville bedrock, but rather in catskill, huntley, or maybe mauch chunk.

USGS, sullivan county, well water ph:"median pH of water samples from the Burgoon Sandstone Member was 5.9; from the Mauch Chunk Formation, 6.6; from the Catskill Formation, 6.9, and from the Huntley Mountain Formation, 7.0."

https://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2013/5085/support/sir2013-5085.pdf

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

This thread is great!

 

[silverfox]

Mike wrote:
That’s a very good thesis.

Blue liners, be forewarned in your search....

While that thesis deals with factors the influence wild ST density, another peer-reviewed paper out of PSU in part addressed the topic of landscape influences on the densities of harvestable length ST. Among other things, it involved a retrospective analysis of long-term PFBC data sets for ST streams that had been sampled at least four to seven times ( years ) on the Appalachian Plateau and Ridge and Valley provinces. The inability of streams to buffer against acid episodes was the main landscape related variable that influenced legal ST abundance. Watersheds with streams that didn’t support legal ST were underlain by sandstones in general and the Pottsville Formation in particular. Utisol soils impacted the streams in the same way.

Kocovsky, P. M., and R. F. Carline. 2006. Influence of Landscape-scale Factors in Limiting Brook Trout Populations in Pennsylvania Streams. Trans. Am. Fish. Soc. 135(1): 76-88.

That's definitely evident in exploration & personal "sampling". It's tough finding a pristine stream with good flows and excellent habitat, only to discover it's practically devoid of fish due to the sandstone/quartzite. That said, I'm always amazed to find a handful of brookies holding on in some of these streams.

 

[TYoung]

Here is a map that shows the geology of PA.

http://www.gis.dcnr.state.pa.us/maps/index.html

Click on the geology menu and toggle on bedrock geology. The different colors represent the different types of geology. If you click on one of the colors, it will show the type of geology.