Bait fishing on the Little J

[afishinado]

Attached is the LJRA site with an editorial comment by Bill Anderson, the President of the LJRA, about bait fishing on the Little J. What do you think?


http://www.littlejuniata.org/

 

[JackM]

I honestly have my doubts about these statements:

" Even though they swim away, studies show that most trout with hooks left in their guts will die within a few days. There have also been numerous studies indicating an overall mortality rate of 50+% for trout released after being caught on live bait."

" (A list of references to these studies will be made available to any of you who wish to have them)."

Otherwise, I think some portion of the large stretch of All Tackle section could be converted to ALO or even FFO to see if there is an appreciable difference in populations.

PS, I also have my doubts about the claims of the bait anglers to have caught 100 trout each.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

I honestly have my doubts about these statements:

i dont

 

[sdwlucas]

First I'd like to say that as a former bait-fisher I couldn't catch a fish out of the J on a minnow, worm or anything else that was live. I could however catch them on a lure.

Second, I'd like to say that how many bait-fishers fish the J now that it is catch and release. I fish the J quite a bit and haven't come across a bait-fisher yet this year.

 

[troutbert]

I've read reports saying the mortality was in the range of 30-40% for trout caught and released with bait. These were in raceway studies and my guess is that the rate would be somewhat less in fast flowing streams, since more fish would probably be lip hooked than deep hooked where there is current carrying the bait along.

But whatever the number, I do think it's probably true that the mortality rate is pretty high.

But this would be the case not just on the Little Juniata, but everywhere. If you apply such a rule on the Little J, why not apply it on all wild trout streams?

And let's not forget that on the great majority of streams the issue isn't deep hooking mortality on C&R bait fishing. On most streams you can harvest 5 per day.

Regarding the question of whether bait fishermen fish C&R areas. I'm not as familiar with the Little J as with Spring Creek. But on Spring Creek at least, bait fishing is very common, even though it's a C&R stream. You see more of it in the cold times of the year, and when the flows are up, than in low flow periods like now.

You see lots of bait fisherman in the cold months, from fall through winter and through early spring. Then in the summer not so many, except that they come out after a thunderstorm has brought the water back up.

 

[Squaretail]

Add on to that the mortality from mishandling from most baiters in general. I know I was hard on them when I was slinging bait. I also remember holding the trout in the air by the line and then cutting it.
Fly, lure, or bait, the deadliest item on most days to catch a large brown in my experience has been the minnow. Larger minnows.

 

[rrt]

Maybe you guys are right, but Spring Creek, except for the size of the trout, seems to have thrived over the years. I do not think the diminished size of Spring's trout can be totally attributed to bait fishing; I imagine the fish are handled so many times that they eventually succumb to the handling, hence the smaller size than once was average there. At any rate, we need allies on the LJR, and the guys who fish live bait are, at least at present, our allies against the evil empire of the SRC.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

that is a good point rrt, but once the src is gone then what? we cant exactly expect to have the baitfishers excluded once this whole thing is over. i dont doubt the eagle claw snelled bait hooks kill fish, but baitfishers shouldnt be excluded from all special reg areas. i belive this is one, since they are fighting also, they should be allowed on.

 

[shipnfish2006]

I agree with rrt and Sal, they fought for it too so let them on it. There is plenty of stream there to go around for everyone. In the times I've ever been there I've seen maybe 2-3 bait anglers ever anyway. The first time I ever fished the stream, 10 or so years ago (about 11 or 12 years old), my buddy and I used hellgramites and worms and we caught probably 30 between us in 4 or 5 hours, so I see no reason why someone with bait who is good and knows what they're doing can't catch 100 in a day. Some people just get too caught up in what others are doing, if you don't believe someone who says they caught X amount of fish then don't believe them but dont accuse them of being a liar just because it hasn't happened to you. Just my two cents on that...

 

[Squaretail]

The bugger about these kind of topics is that except for Ranger Keen and precious few others the rest of us started out as baitfishermen. Although it irritates me about the practices most baiters do, it makes me a hypocrite to absolutely condemn them. I know my first fish was a sunny on bread and my 2nd was a chub on a worm. Countless trout paid the ultimate price to give me enjoyment in the following years. But I was a kid then.
Though I dont believe baiters are enemies of any form very few are my allies anyway. I would rather see "no fishing" period on SRC waters than see the sport fleeced to line someones pockets who claims to be a conservationist and (I'll NEVER forget this one) "do it for our children and grandchildren". The most common reply I hear from baiters (hundreds if not thousands by now) is "If I dont take them out, someone else will".
They just want on flywaters as always, SRC or PFBC doesnt matter. To the point that they start poaching. Seems to accelerate at the start of hunting seasons that I've seen. Not my enemies, I was what they are. But that doesn't make them my allies. I only can hope they will develop as I did and time to time offer a nudge to the flyrod section. Every once in awhile I get one to buy one and the rest is usually history. Always makes me feel good to turn a man onto flyfishing.
I once caught 172 trout on corn and minnows and the fellow I was with caught 270 something out of the Perkiomen near Palm Hill bridge.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

thats alot of trout!

all i can say to the bait fishin lurkers on this site is read this please!

right bait hooks

 

[Squaretail]

That day was a show down of sorts. There was one other kid in my town that I was told could catch more than me. We met and both took off school on an overcast/rainy day and had at it. Sure enough the stocking truck showed up that day. They only posted what week back then. At 172 trout, you could imagine how far my jaw dropped when he gave me his total before I conceded defeat.
I would like GPS coordinates to where you caught that new brookie in your picture Sal.

 

[jayL]

That beats my bait record of 54. Damn. My record also was set during a competition while skipping school... I believe it was 8th grade.

 

[TDB]

The LJRA stance is a good one and I can only pray that it comes to fruition some day.
I've seen tons of bait fishermen on the LJR. It just isn't necessary. The state stocks hundreds of thousands of adult fish every year in waters that are meant for put and take. This is a unique cold water flow that can sustain trout year-round. It just isn't necessary b/c I've seen the fatalities related to bait fishing. It is fact.

 

[mattd]

My first time fishing the little J was about 10 years ago and I am sorry to say I was bait fishing. It was early spring and the water levels were great. I don't know how many I caught that day but I stopped counting at 25. My estimate would be about 70, all I know is my back hurt the next day. 100 trout in a day, very possible under the right conditions.

 

[RangerKeen]

FYI !!!!!!

I was on the river with Bill Anderson the day he ran into the fisherman.

Second I fish the Lil j 5 days out of the week, year round !!! , more than anyone i can honestly say . Most who know of me can back that up. And I see bait fisherman all the time . And alot of dead trout down stream too

Dont fool yourself into to thinking that baitfisherman dont cause a high mortality ..

 

[JackM]

Ranger Keen, I just want to clarify for the record that the doubts I have are not as to Bill Anderson accurately reporting what the 'baiters told him, but rather the veracity of the report they gave him.

Next, I have never seen a study supporting 50% mortality. I am sure some anglers can have higher piscacide rates than others, but as an average for the broad class of bait anglers, 50% does not strike me as a valid number. Dry hands, fingers in gills, rough removal of barbed hooks, exhausting the fish before landing and keeping the fish out of the water excessively long all probably account for greater mortality that mere bait fishing and deep hooking. While bait anglers may be more prone to commit these other handling errors, I've seen many fly and lure anglers do the same.

Educate the bait anglers to reduce mortality instead of excluding them from waters on the chance that they may be lessening your fishing experience.

 

[RRR]

I think Jack M has a good idea there. It is a long stretch of water and could easily be divided into two sections. One where bait is allowed and one where it isn't. This would be at least a somewhat scientific way of studying the differences in populations and size distribution on both types of water. I fished the Little J for the first time a couple weeks ago and was absolutely astounded at the number and size of the trout there. Now I see why you guys that have that kind of water readily available to you can't understand why us guys from S.E. PA. get so upset about people killing a few wild trout. There are probably more wild trout in any given pool on the Little J than there are in the total length of any of our wild trout streams. I know for a fact that there are more BIG wild trout in any pool of the L.J than there are in all our wild trout streams combined. You guys just don't realize how fortunate you are to have streams like the Little J, Penns and Spring Creek in your back yards. I was so impressed with the fishing in that area that I am planning to sell everything I own down here and move out there within the next couple of years.

 

[OhioOutdoorsman]

Ah, this topic again. Come on, I want to see a new record thread. I'll let Jack and RRR argue this one for me this time......

Sal, good to see you've come around a bit, too. Good article. I'm willing to bet if they did a study comparing a nymph/indicator rig to a worm on a single circle hook actively fished under a bobber, the moratality would be simular.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

im coming around, but! make no mistake. my problem is bait and keeping wild fish on small less fertile freestone streams. the little j is neither of these and the baiters are helping to keep the stream public. the deserve to be there. also the little j can stand to lose a few fish from bad hooks or mishandling. some small brookie streams cannot.