A possible "fingerling" ST stocking success - Lakeside Quarry

[Mike]

Sal may have discovered the beginning of a possible, but rare, brook trout (ST) fingerling stocking success following the first year that large "fingerlings" were stocked. To be fair, however, these were hardly typical "fingerlings" as they were about 7" long as I recall, which would give them a big advantage over the typical 2-4" fingerlings that are typically stocked in other waters. They also were not stocked very long ago. Plus, stocking them in a limestone quarry that is loaded with freshwater shrimp (Gammaridae sp.) is theoretically as ideal of an environment that one can find, except that the quarry also has large predators ... largemouth bass...which would take their toll on smaller fingerlings. You'll find his comments in the stream reports under Lakeside Quarry, as well as some information from me on the long and sometimes failed stocking history for those who might be interested. This will hopefully expand your appreciation of the complexities regarding fingerling stockings. Fingerlings don't always work, but sometimes they do. Those "sometimes" are relatively unususal in Pa.

 

[Mike]

By the way, you too may be able to find a similar fishery in your part of Pa. A number of waters around the state received some of these thousands of large ST fingerlings in January, 2009, although some may have been stocked in late December. You'll have to check the list:
http://www.fishandboat.com/stock_fingerling.htm.

 

[albatross]

Mike,

Your link is broke. Is this what you meant? http://www.fish.state.pa.us/stock_fingerling.htm

 

[Mike]

Albatross,
Nice catch! Yes, your link is the one that works properly. Thanks.
MK

 

[RLeeP]

Mike: Has the Commission or staff ever given consideration to trying a wild fingerling pilot program in an appropriate stream?

I ask because out in WI and Iowa, where I do most of my fishing these days, they've had some pretty dramatic success with both wild BT and ST fingerlings in getting self-sustaining populations established.

I understand the significant differences between the two fisheries (WI and PA) in general terms, but I've been curious about this ever since these successes started to become apparent out here a few years back.

Thanks..

 

[tomgamber]

Mill Creek 1 Conf N Fk & Middle Fk
-downstream to-
Mouth May 15 x

Hey Mike...why would they stock brown trout fingerlings in a native brook trout stream? Especially at the confluence of two other wild brookie streams where upstream migration would affect native fish.

 

[Chaz]

I'd like to see fingerling brookies stocked in the Lehigh River, because before the damn dam it was a brookie fishery.

 

[littlejuniata]

I have heard from reliable sources that the very first fingerlings stocked in the Little Juniata were stocked simply because there were too many fingerlings on inventory and the commission needed to put them soemwhere??


Nice project with the brookies Mike Thanks for that

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Mike,

Do you have any idea how deep that thing is by chance?

Ive seen some bass in that thing that had to be over 5 pounds. Im sure between the scuds and RT fingerlings....that is where they got their size.

Anyone thinking of visiting the quarry keep in mind also:

Not only did we catch all those trout we also caught some extremely large sunfish. All on dries. They also fought 3 times harder than the trout.

One of the spin guys had a crappie hooked that was HUGE. I mean real real big. He got off before he could get him to hand.

Between all of these fish and the bass we saw your chance of catching a mixed bag of fish is very good. If catching sunfish or bass bothers you I wouldnt go here. If you dont care what you catch and just enjoying feeling the nibble on the end of your line, then your gonna have a blast. I dont fish enough places like this. I fished the W Br of Dyberry Creek and caught over 60 fish that day. Largemouth and Smallmouth bass, stocked bows, stocked browns, wild browns, wild brookies, pumpkin seeds, sunfish, chubs, blacknose dace, pickerels and a sucker. half the fish were trout. It was awesome. When reeling a fish in i had to wonder what was next. Walleye? Pike? Muskie? Carp? GAR!? It makes it alot of fun. The one largemouth was the biggest and measured about 20 inches.

 

[tomgamber]

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:


Not only did we catch all those trout we also caught some extremely large sunfish. All on dries. They also fought 3 times harder than the trout.

Now that's a place I could get used to...I could use the 'yak or my float tubes...

 

[Mike]

The PFBC's coldwater unit leader, Tom Greene, has been in contact with the Wisc. staff person who has been working on the project...raising wild trout in a hatchery system and stocking them out into streams. The second hand info that I have is that the project has worked best in SW Wisc., where the waters are more fertile (limestoners). There has been mixed to limited success elsewhere.

In Pa.'s case, the good limestoners already support reproduction and the vast majority of the other limestoners are so degraded (little or no habitat for reproduction or nursery/fingerling water) for the most part that even fingerling stockings would not do well. There are few middle of the road limestoners where little or no reproduction occurs yet fingerlings would survive to produce a fishery. Often, the habitat or in some cases the summer temps are so bad that the streams will not support much of an adult population for more than six months, let alone fingerlings.

The opportunities for habitat improvement that would really work to create good habitat for stocked fingerlings or trout reproduction on many of these streams are very limited because of mill dams' legacy sediments that are embedded in or cover the streams' natural bottoms, or line the streams with continuously eroding banks, creating ongoing sedimentation problems on top of the existing substrate problems. Some of these streams have good trout reproduction immediately upstream from the footprints of the former mill dam pools and then nothing (no trout fingerlings or adults to speak of) within the footprints, despite the probability that the dams blew out 50-100 years ago. These habitat effects are long lasting and can't be overcome with stockings in most cases.

As for why the PFBC would stock fingerling browns in a wild brookie stream, I would have to know more about the streams in question to answer that. It would be best to contact the local AFM for an answer. One question that immediately came to mind is: Are the streams strictly wild brookie streams or are they mixed wild brook and brown trout already?

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

another question (even though you didnt answer my first; ;-) )

1. how deep is that quarry if you know and....

2. How does the fish comm go about electroshocking such a deep body of water?

 

[Mike]

OK Sal, I'll answer now with less accurate data than if I had waited until tomorrow, which I had intended to do, so that I could give you the exact answer. It is shallower than you would think. As I recall it is about 25-28 ft deep at the deepest. Could be 40 ft., but I think it is 25-28. If we electrofished it we would do so at night when the fish tend to come close to shore and in shallower water than during the day. If that did not work, we would use gill nets in this specific situation (since there are are few locations for trap net deployment...the shoreline drops off too quickly).

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

ah ok mike sorry to rush you. thought you just missed between all the posts and words. Thanks for the info. Thats interesting. Most quarries are extremely deep. Guess they hit a spring pretty early in the digging.

I noticed the fish were really rising close to the shoreline as the sun got low and faded to dark. Interesting stuff. So i guess its hard to get accurate info on this fish populations in such a body of water.

 

[wgmiller]

What was your "weapon of choice"?

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

for the quarry i was having most my success on midges and BWO dries.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

oh i see, you were talking to mike. Well i guess anything is ok as long as it isnt plastic explosives.

 

[wgmiller]

No, I was talking to you. You got it right! :-D

 

[RLeeP]

Mike: Thanks for taking the time to respond re: the wild fingerling question I asked. Based on what I've heard and some conversations I've had with WI fisheries folks, your description of the situation seems pretty accurate, although I was not aware that there was a disparity between success in the SW spring creeks and other places in the state where they've tried this.

One difference (as you sort of note) between the small limestones in the 2 states and their applicability for an effort like this is the dismal habitat conditions on many of PA's small limestones contrasted with a very vigorous stream improvement program in WI that supports and enhances the success rate of the wild fingerling plants. The WI program is supported by their trout stamp money. In fact, I think by act of the legislature, this is the only thing it can be used for. Another thing that helps this program is that stream device/enhancement efforts are often bundled as a "twofer" with soil and pasture conservation projects and hence are more palatable to the landowners, in this case mostly farmers.

Most of the WI-DNR people I've spoke with about this believe the stream work is primary in the success they've seen. They also however, believe that another not insignificant component of the success has been the better adaptive characteristics of the wild fingerlings. Sort of like the "life finds a way" thing from Jurassic Park. And this makes sense too, given that there are a number of streams with pretty limited spawning habitat where no new improvements have been done and where fingerlings from hatchery stock have been planted for many years with no real upswing in the number of wild fish, that have exploded with wild trout and a string of good year classes when planted with wild fingerlings.

All in all, it's an interesting thing to wonder about, IMO.

I again thank you for your response...

 

[sholgate]

I stopped there today on the way to the Quitty. Neat place. Not really beautiful, but neat. And I would say successful.

I love the brook trout.