3 Keys to Success

[mute]

When i think of the 3 things you need to have to catch a fish i think of these and in this order.

The right depth

The proper presentation

The right fly


I believe if you have all 3 you will catch fish. Even only 2 theres still a chance to catch fish. Thoughts? Opinions?

 

[jayL]

Location > all of them.

Also, presentation > the right depth imo. The fish come from the bottom to grab a properly presented surface imitation, even if there's no hatch.

 

[flybop]

The three most important are, in no particular order, presentation, presentation and presentation. Somewhere further down the list fly selection comes into play.

Seriously, I fish with a couple hundred fishermen every year and I am thoroughly convinced this is true.

To an extent there are some limitations to this though. It is almost impossible to fish a wooly bugger wrong. During a caddis hatch even a poorly swung emerger will catch some fish. But, overall, presentaion is the key.

 

[Chaz]

I disagree, having the right fly and knowing how to present the fly under the current stream conditions is most important. For instance having a little Black Stone Fly dry fly on in January will not bring a strike even if it is presented correctly if the trout aren't taking them. However put on the nymph and drop it deep into the runs and you will catch fish. Using the same fly in midsummer isn't going to get you anything no matter how well presented it is, but tie on a green inch worm in the summer and cast it anywhere and you will catch fish. No matter how well you present a fly if the trout don't want it they aren't going to take it.

Using midges in brook trout streams may catch a few fish, but the brookies aren't looking for tiny stuff. They are looking for a meal on one take, put on a big stimulator or a royal wulff and you'll catch far more brookies then with a midge. Brookie streams don't have near the number of midges that limestone streams have.
On brookie streams your fishing to spots more then you are to fish, that is if you want to catch the bigger brookies. You just don't fish brookie streams the way you fish limestone streams. Presentation doesn't usually enter the equation on brookie streams.

 

[flybop]

Chaz, I do agree with you. I should have been a little more clear. When I de-empasised fly choice I did mean fly choice within a reasonable range for the conditions.

What I mean is that presentation is far more important than the choice between a size 18 pt and a size 18 cooper john. My six inch streamers may work on the Stone, but will not work up in one of our mountain streams.

 

[tomgamber]

The right fly is very important. But I can give and identical fly to someone else when its working for me and they still can't catch fish.
Now if you combine the right fly with a good presentation, your chances increase greatly again. But I am much less of a match the hatch person as opposed to a lets see if I can get them to eat this ind of person. I'm not saying you are incorrect, just that none of this is etched in stone when it comes to an animal with a brain the size of a pea.

 

[Chaz]

None of it is etched in stoneand as you said give a fly that is working for you to someone else and they still may not catch fish on it. I've been out with some very good anglers over the years and they often stick to their own routine because it works for them. Een if they aren't catching fish at the rate I am they stick to their routine. Of course the opposite is true too. Put on the right fly and make the right presentation and you will catch fish.
Then again there are days when I'm out and I'm using my patterns and the other guy is using his and we oth catch a bucket of fish. Like was said, trout have a pea sized brain, we often expect too much and get away from what catches fish.

 

[flybop]

One thing is for sure, nothing about fly fishing is etched in stone. There are many different methods, flies, approaches and tricks that work on any given day.

What I have seen many times over and over is that you can have two fishermen using the same fly and if one has a consistently better presentation the vast majority of the time that guy will out fish the other guy.

Having said that here is a seemingly contradictory situation. It is very common for us to guide husband and wife teams. More times than not the wife, regardless of the experience level, will out fish her husband. The general consensus is that woman listen better. No matter how good of a wade fishermen you are, there is a learning curve when you jump in a drift boat on a large western river.

Here is another big factor to consider with the two guys with the same fly scenerio. If they are nymphing then strike detection and response plays a huge role in the number of hookups.

 

[MKern]

I can think of two large factors in catching fish.
1.) knowing where the fish are - fishing over top of fish kinda increases your odds of hooking fish, then if your fishing in an area that has no or few fish. I'm talking about lie and feeding lanes.
2.) Presentation - It has to simulate a natural drift for a wild fish to take it.

I don't think fly selection is important. If fish are that selective between sizes, and colors, then I hate to tell you, they can tell the difference between feather and hair tied to a hook and attatched to string and the real deal.
Chaz, I aggree with you on almost everything fly fishing, but I have a question for you pertaining to the small black stonefly thing you said. You eluded that a person won't catch fish on a small black stonefly nymph in july. My question: where do the next Winter's stoneflies go? If I'm correct, they are still in the stream crawling around and tumbling along the bottom. Same thing with all species of insects. Sorry I don't buy into the fish with what is actively hatching, because under the surface all the bugs are active.

 

[afishinado]

Mkern wrote: “I don't think fly selection is important. If fish are that selective between sizes, and colors, then I hate to tell you, they can tell the difference between feather and hair tied to a hook and attatched to string and the real deal.
Chaz, I aggree with you on almost everything fly fishing, but I have a question for you pertaining to the small black stonefly thing you said. You eluded that a person won't catch fish on a small black stonefly nymph in july. My question: where do the next Winter's stoneflies go? If I'm correct, they are still in the stream crawling around and tumbling along the bottom. Same thing with all species of insects. Sorry I don't buy into the fish with what is actively hatching, because under the surface all the bugs are active.”



I agree that fly selection alsone is usually not the key to catching fish. Proper presentation is the key most often.

As far as the black stonefly scenario you mentioned, the nymphs that hatched from eggs and deposited by little black stones that hatched in February or March, could probably fit on the head of a pin in June or July. True, there are always immature nymphs in the water from hatches at different times of the year, but for example, most of the mayfly nymphs that hatched from eggs deposited in the spring are very tiny in the summer, and some of the slow-water nymphs are buried below the bottom in mud hidden from the fish. Many of the immature free-living caddis are also small, and the cased caddis are hidden, adhering to rocks on the stream bottom. Some of the bigger stonefly species take 2-3 years to mature and hatch, therefore they may present a substantial meal for the fish.

In addition to the small size of immature nymphs and larva, most insects are fairly inactive until close to their hatch time – with the behavioral drift of insects being the exception.

I believe that if try to imitate a nymph or pupa that is actively hatching or ready to hatch, you raise your odds of catching fish, because you are presenting something that the fish see frequently and recognize as a food item….or you can just tie on a bead head green weenie with a San Juan worm dropper and have at them...that usually works too!

 

[tomgamber]

There are several "small black stoneflies." I'm not sure which ones Chaz is talking about but most of the ones on streams near me are clingers, which means they spend most of the time under or clinging to rocks. When the time comes (whatever that particular stimulus is...) they will drift en masse before crawling out to hatch. Its during that drift that these nymphs are deadly. The ones Chaz may be referring to do not do that redistributing kind of drift that time of year.

But as I said, if you present it correctly, you can make them think what we call a small black stonefly nymph is something else. We had a discussion a while back and everyone ranked what was most important in a fly: color, size, pattern...presentation aside, not everyone agreed on that either.

 

[troutbert]

It's kind of like real estate:

Location, location, location.

Lots of people are fishing with good flies, with good techniques, in waters where there are precious few trout to appreciate their efforts.

 

[afishinado]

Since Chaz mentioned the little black stonefly that hatches in January, I’m assuming that he is referring the tiny winter black stones that crawl to the bank to hatch as stoneflies do. I’ve heard them called needle flies or snowflies, since you may see these small, thin bodied flies along the stream bank in the winter snow.

To Mkern’s post about immature insects and their availability in the stream; the point I was trying to make is that, with few exceptions, immature nymphs and larva are usually small in size and generally and not readily available to the fish, because for the most part, they remain hidden and are inactive. Fishing patterns the imitate insects that are active and ready to hatch may up your odds of catching fish.

I am a rock turner and a bush shaker when I get to the stream. Oftentimes turning over a rock and examining insects does not tell you that much about what happening on the stream that day. It may give you a clue as to what insects are present, and what will hatch in the future. Far more telling is looking at spider webs for insects that have hatched, or insect shucks and cases clinging to exposed rocks. Also shaking the bushes near the bank to see what flies out sometimes works.

But, getting back to the original question posed - I believe that certain fly patterns produce be better in certain situations, but good presentation is the key to catching fish in nearly every situation.

 

[flybop]

I did forget to mention what some others said. Reading the water is very important. I would rate reading the water above casting. Let me quantify this, as long as someone is a moderate caster, then reading the water is more important than learning to throw an entire fly line.

 

[Padraic]

I don't know if it's the most important thing, but approach should come first. If you've scared the trout, you aren't going to catch them.

The next item I'd want to figure out location. If you aren't reading the stream well and casting to where the fish are it won't matter what you are casting or how you are presenting it. So this is the second job of reading the trout stream.

Knowing what insects are available to the trout is the next thing. I guess we all tye on a favorite fly and give it a shot, but shooting in the dark is not a high percentage strategy. I may start off with an ant or an adams, but if I am trying that day, I'll be trying to get more information. Knowing that there are caddis on the water versus sulphurs affects where you will cast and how you will present the fly.

Presentaton is the next thing I would decide on. Are the caddis egg laying? Are they divers or skittering? Are the terrestrials getting blown into the stream? If so, do I want to time my cast to a gust of wind and tight to a bush? Are mayflies emerging at the head of the pool or egg laying in the middle (or anywhere else)?

Knowing the behavior of the insects may give you a clue as to the species or size too, so maybe you don't have to catch one. Matching the insect is the last thing I would try to do chronologically, and perhaps in terms of importance as well. Although I am not trying to rank things in terms of importance per se. I generally use just a limited number of patterns. Often I use attractors and just try to match the size. For instance, my favorite pattern for sulphurs and little yellow sallies is a lime trude (try it sometime!).

Bottom line, I think the three most important things changes from hatch to hatch. For tricos, you really must match the hatch and have the correct presentation. But generally, I don't think matching the hatch is that key. I'd rather have the location and presentation correct.

 

[MKern]

Afishinado,
You say that you fish flies that simulate what is active or hatching for that particular time of year.
My question to you is does your fly, for sake of argument let's say little black stone, really look anything like a natural insect?
My guess is not.
I consider myself a fairly realistic tier, adding gills, antennae, realistic wingcases, the correct number and position of legs, etc. But no matter how hard I try, the flies I tie are not twins of the natural, they are just closer than "standard" patterns. I'm getting that yes, my details in my flies aid me in catching more fish, but not the main reason. And, if a fish were to get fineky about feeding, it could surely tell the difference.
I honestly feel that the reason I catch plenty of fish, is because I fish areas that have fish or could have fish (which I feel that most anglers do not) and present the fly correctly the first cast (which again I think most do not).
Also, just though of this, I have been fishing the Kish a lot since August, and under every rock there is an over abundance of caddis (all shapes and sizes), scuds, and cressbugs, but have yet to see a mayfly, but yet 98% of the fish I catch in the Kish are on a variation of a pheasant tail. Why are they taking the PT and not my extremely close to natural caddis larva. And both ride near the bottom, and I attach my flies in a manner where both flies are each tied to the leader but not attached to one another in anyway, and are only a few inches apart.
If there are little active mayflies but the caddis are everywhere, why do they take the PT every time? In this instance fly selection is key and has nothing to do with active insects.
The only point this proves is that fish chose what they want and we realy don't have a say.

 

[MKern]

I think we might be giving the fish too much credit, or not enough. This makes my head hurt! :-? :lol:
All I really know is that fish eat, and I take it upon myself to give them som fake food every once in a while.
This is what I consider fun, tricking a peabrained animal. :lol:

Just so everyone knows, my posts aren't to be negative in any way (when I read the last one it sounds that way to me).

I like to think of my posts as philosophical, and try to get my brain ticking. And hopefully others; brains ticking too.
Maybe I'm too young to get philosophical, ya think.
There I go again...

 

[mute]

Haha, did you ever come to think, we probably spend hours of dollars a year just to trick pea brained fish.

 

[MKern]

Mute,
All the time man.
I don't mind spending money on my favorite thing to do though.
I hate spending money on my car, house, and clothes -- I don't get enjoyment out of that crap.

 

[afishinado]

Of all the posts, Pad’s was the most comprehensive. As he listed, there are a lot of factors that go into fishing success (or failure). There is no substitute for time on the water and experience dealing with all the factors and skills Pad mentioned to boost success (and enjoyment).

I try to become aware of the bugs that inhabit a stream, but that’s only one small piece of the puzzle. Mkern, you mentioned tying realistic flies - read some of Gary LaFountaine’s books dealing with attraction and triggers. I have changed my view on realistic patterns, and find more generic patterns that don’t represent, but rather suggest certain insects, while using a presentation that that mimics their movement, or their lack of movement in the water. For example, a simple fly like a GRHE can be tied and fished to suggest many different insects, and can be more effective than an exact imitation of one specific insect. Or a LaFountaine ESP or DSP that not at all realistic looking, yet has certain trigger qualities that make it effective when caddis are active in a stream.

It’s all very interesting, and great to puzzle over when actual fishing is not an option due to the crappy weather. Good luck.