Warranties

[McSneek]

My waders posting and the mention of LL Bean brought the suggestion that I return my current waders for exchange under the 100% satisfaction guarantee (lifetime warranty). I still have the original shipping information. Waders were shipped to me on 2/25/05. So my question is, after 6+ years of use do I really have a claim that I'm not 100% satisfied and entitled to some sort of refund or exchange? These were a great pair of waders. I think they've just developed what I would call pressure leaks. I've never been able to find a leak when I've tried and I suspect the material has just lost its waterproof qualities or maybe there is the slightest leak along a seam that only shows up after several hours in the water. I could see a lifetime warranty on a rod because it's not really going to wear out from use but waders? None of them last forever. I guess I feel in this case to claim I'm not satisfied with something like waders after 6 years is really stretching the whole concept of a warranty/customer satisfaction guarantee? Thoughts? Comments?

 

[dryflyguy]

I'm with you on that thought.
If I get 2 to 3 years out of a pair of waders - and I fish a lot - I'm happy.
Nothing lasts forever, and I really have no need to take advantage of a company's generous warranty policy.
And, if they were to leak because I punched a hole in them, I would assume responsibility for that, and try to patch them

I currently have a pair of bean wading boots that are about 3 years old, that I've never really been happy with - comfort wise. But there is really nothing wrong with them - i.e., they didn't fall apart or become unwearable.
But I can't seem to bring myself to return them now.

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear McSneek and dryflyguy,

You fellows are not alone with your thoughts. I too am a strong believer in the concept that a lifetime guarantee is valid only as it relates to a product's expected lifetime, not the owner's.

All things do wear out.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[pete41]

Only thing I have ever used a warranty on are car batteries down here in Fl..
Unless you use your vehicle a great deal they just die because of the heat and humidity.a fact of life and they won't take a recharge.I didn't intend to ask for anything but Walmart checks when you buy a battery from them and gives you the replacement.Okay,I wasn't going to fight with them but other than that I couldn't agree more with the above posters.Not my style to be a finagler.lol

 

[gfen]

Is it my lifetime, or the waders' lifetime that is garunteed?

Six years of regular use is a lifetime for a pair of waders, so I would feel guilty taking them back.

Also, I need new waders and boots. I'm waiting for a Bean sale and enduring leaks until that time. When I buy them, it may become a case of "do as I say not as I do."

 

[jdaddy]

Glad to see so many people taking the ethical (IMO) stance on this.

 

[JackM]

Well, the warranty is a contract. If I spend 400+ on waders and they tell me they won't "fail" in that time, or that if they do, they will replace or repair, I wouldn't hesitate to return them for whatever amount of credit or even full credit without compunction. Now, if I ripped a hole in them-- different story-- unless the "warranty" actually established my right to replacement or repair even if I am the bonehead.

People need to realize that the most expensive pair of waders probably costs less than $50 to make, including labor and fringe benefits.

Do not feel guilty about getting what you paid for. In order to determine "what you paid for," read your warranty.

If "satisfaction" was guaranteed and you are satisfied with 6 good years, then I agree it would be unethical to lie about your satisfaction.

 

[RichK]

Well....L.L. Bean uses their warrranty as a selling point. I bought a digital camera from Bean because the salesman told me it was covered for life. Bean charged $20 more than any of the big chain electronics/camera/TV stores, but I accepted that as the price to pay for a lifetime warranty. I also bought a GPS unit that was similarly "over-priced", but it has Bean's lifetime warranty. Much of the clothing Bean sells is made in China and Pakistan, and the price is not low. Once again, they seem to be pricing their warranty into the products. There are some exceptions: Simms waders, non-Bean brand rods and reels, canoes and kayaks, and some other products that are price-controlled by the manufacturers. If you go to Bean's warranty page, there's a video of customers standing in front of their Miane store. One customer said the lifetime warranty is the only reason he shops at LL Bean.

If the warranty wasn't working out for Bean, they'd change it. Cabelas used to offer a lifetime warranty on their house brand items, but have limited that to one year now. Bean has changed their shipping to Free Forever (or something like that), so it would seem they're doing well. Selling a made in Pakistan shirt for $45 does wonders to keep a company in the black. The same shirt at
WalMart would sell for much less. If you used your waders to protect yourself while training attack dogs, then you might have to think twice about returning them. If you used them as a pair of waders for fishing, who's to say how long they should last? I've had $100 Hodgman waders last through 4 years of very heavy use, and that's fishing all year long. A pair of Wicked Toughs should be expected to last just as long. BTW, Simms repairs their waders if you send them back, and that service is built into the cost (at least for the first year). Bean simply replaces their products, probably because it's cheaper for them. If Bean doesn't have an issue with it, why should you? ;-)

 

[pete41]

Because it makes Bean's quality products even more costly than they would be if purchasers went with reasonable usage as fair standard of lifetime for the product?
Someone is paying the piper or forced to shop elsewhere.

 

[JackM]

Every contract I make I think I have a moral right to enforce according to its terms. I will only say that I do not agree with any premise that Bean products are equivalent to WalMart products. I think Bean has protected its reputation by shopping carefully for quality. They may be from Pakistan, but they are from the better Pakistany clothiers.

 

[RichK]

From Bean's Website (and displayed prominently at their retail stores):

"Guaranteed to Last" "Products Built to Stand the Test of Time"

"Our products are guaranteed to give 100% satisfaction in every way. Return anything purchased from us at [color=990000]any time[/color] if it proves otherwise. We do not want you to have anything from L.L.Bean that is not completely satisfactory."

Seems clear to me. I should add that I compromised on the sizing of the Simms waders I bought from Bean. They don't carry very many sizes, but their warranty made me a customer...with slightly
baggy waders. Actually, when I was trying to choose between two colors of Bean wading jackets, I told the salesman that I might be being Simms waders a year later, and that the green jacket would look better with Simms. He told me that if I bought the Simms a year later, that I should simply return the beige jacket for the green color a year later. He didn't struggle with the words, and they rolled off his tongue quite easily. Whether Bean's prices would be reduced if people didn't return waders after several years is a matter of speculation. I don't work for Bean, but based on there store inventory, clothing seems to be their bread and butter. Clothing made in Pakistan, China, and Vietnam, and sold for top dollar. Some people like that Bean charges top dollar, and wear their clothes like any other high ticket product.

P.S. Bean's clothes are designed better than Walmart brand, and the quality is usually good. I'm currently wearing a pair of Bean khaki slacks. The stitching for the hem fell out after two washings, but I simply sewed it back together myself.

 

[gfen]

RichK wrote:
The stitching for the hem fell out after two washings, but I simply sewed it back together myself.

Then return them, that's certainly not satisfactory nor "lifetime." However, if the seam falls out after 6 years of wear, to go back and demand new ones is the epitome of lame behaviour.

 

[JackM]

I would bet that the 0.01% returns they process results in at least a two-fold increase in overall profit. They are in it for profit, why should the consumer not be?

 

[RichK]

No Way: These pants have proven to be winners in all other aspects. :lol: I've washed them a couple dozen times, and they are very comfortable. Besides, they were a closeout item. All of my other Bean clothes have proven 100% satisfactory, and I'm not easy on clothing.

Back to the Wicked Toughs: I'd give the people at Bean a call, and ask them how long they'd expect a pair of waders to last under normal use. If they immediately tell you to return them for exchange or refund, then you have your answer. WHo would better know the Bean policy then the good folks at LL Bean?

 

[Tiltaxp]

You can always return them, take the store credit and buy a winter coat and donate it. Pay for your next set of waders, they did you well.

 

[Heritage-Angler]

Interesting discussion. McSneek - I work for LL Bean, so I feel qualified to answer.

In short - I'd advise you to return those waders. There's nothing unethical about doing so. LL Bean has had the same return policy since day one, and they mean what they say.

Some folks may feel guilty about returning a pair of waders that they feel they've got their money's worth from. Fine. That's up to the customer, and LL Bean wants you to know that it is YOUR choice. They'll happily stand behind your decision either way.

LL Bean's 100% Satisfaction Guarantee is the foundation that their business was built on. It works for them, and they're doing just fine. They're well aware, that by taking care of their customers, their customers will likely return to them in the future. This isn't abusing a policy - it's about gaining and maintaining a lifelong relationship with customers. They want your business - let them earn it.

H.A.

 

[nymphingmaniac]

Someone said it best, built into the cost. Just as the cost of shop lifting (cost and prevention) and insurance fraud is built into the costs. Before I get bombarded, I am in NO WAY saying the situations are equivalent. Just pointing out that someone pays.

I believe the expectation is that people enter into a contract "with good faith". In some cases this is enforceable, in others its an honor system. Good faith for me is a reasonable expectation of longevity.

It's personal choice if people take Bean up on their offer. However, for me, it would be hard for me to say honestly that i was not satisfied getting 4-5 years out of a pair of well-fished LL Bean waders. I believe Mcsneek feels the same, since he asked the question.

and yes, this is just my opinion.

 

[RichK]

I'd rather make the analogy to Sage/Winston/Etc rods' lifetime warranty being built into the cost of the product. Shoplifting and insurance fraud are frowned upon by everyone except those individuals who choose to make the leap into criminal behavior.
Sage will gladly fix your broken rod, regardless of its age. Sage prides itself on keeping the mandrels of all the rods they've built since the early 1980's, and can repair rather than replace a rod. You can call Bean and Sage and ask if they mind honoring their warranty. The answer will be quite different than you'll get from your insurance provider when inquiring about a fraudulent claim.

Just saying..... :-;

 

[TimRobinsin]

regarding sage's return policy: I will say, in my experience, they are excellent. I have returned two rods that have broken as a result of my own actions. both times sage did a great job. it most certainly is the reason why I consider their products before any others, even before the superb quality. I know that should anything happen they got my back which is a very reassuring feeling when dropping any kind of cash on a product.

in regards to the waders: I would call or email bean and see what they have to say. that has been my first course of action in any successful return with any company.

I recently bought a pair of simms G3 waders and would like to think they should last a lifetime. they feel like they should. I think if in 6 years I am in your position with these waders I would most certainly call or email them to see what they said. if they couldn't do anything I wouldn't hold it against them. but I genuinely think they would be willing to do something.

long story short, I say try it! tell them you loved the waders but you thought they would last a little longer. what can it hurt? Bean sounds like a "stand-up" kinda outfit.

 

[MKern]

When I worked at a fly shop we sold Baily's waders and it was the estimated life of th ewader not the person lifetime. Dan Bailey considered a wader to have a life expectancy of between 2 and 3 years of typical useage.
They had a questionaire that had detailed questions about number of hours worn, streams fished, and storage methods. If they felt your prematurely wore out your waders they wouldn't replace them.