Rod Actions

bigjohn58

bigjohn58

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Sep 23, 2006
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I was curious as to what action of rods you perfer. I know the new trend is the fast tip or even extra fast tip. I have a G-Loomis 9' 6 wt GL3 I built a years or so ago. I believe it has a moderate action and I use it for nymphing and occasionally streamers. I'd say 85% of my casting is roll casts. I also have a Fenwick 8' 5 weight HMX that I use mainly for dries. I am unsure of the action in this rod. I'm curous as to what action your rod is and how you mainly use it casting wise. Whats the advantage of the action with the types of casts or fishing techniques?
 
I just broke my fast tip 4pc...and have been using my older LLbean moderate. For me it more like, "hey, I remember this...this is ok..." It was just different. Did have a little more effort to punch it thru a wind gust I wasn't ready for but other than that it was just different. Fish feel stronger on the softer rod but I didn't lose as many either.
 
I've had two rods since I figured out what I'm doing. One was fast, the other was moderate-slow.

I vastly prefer the slower action rod, my backcasts now end up in wide, lazy loops, however I can consistently throw them rather than mistime everything and end up with a puddle of line at my toes.
 
It wasn't till a friend took me to Erie for steelhead that i paid much attention to rod action , they use the real soft tip (slow) "noodle" to feel the tick of those big buggers that hit so light and fast , IMO it all depends on what kind of fishing you are gonna be doin , those of us that can't run out and buy a rod for every fishing situation have to consider all the oppurtunities , then maybe pick something in between. The first couple good rods i got were from Clousers in Middletown and he let me actually try them on the stream. I'm sure some fly shops will make accomodations.
 
I'll cast it no matter what the action is.
 
I'll cast it also no matter what the action is...I just wondered what actions favor certain styles of fishing and casting. I'm kind of thinking of building another rod.
 
Let me preface this by saying that my favorite fishing is throwing small dries and midges to rising fish on smallish to medium size streams. I don't prefer large rivers with large flies and heavy nymphs or streamers.

My favorite dry-fly and small-stream nymph rod was an 3-wt echo classic. I'm not sure exactly how others would describe it - but I'd say it was on the slow-end of fast - but it had a "soft" tip.

What I mean is at close distances it would load beautifully - I could really feel the small nymphs and dries load the rod when casting. It would roll cast nicely too (I used it with a Wulff Triangle taper line).
But I could also punch it out if I wanted to 60- or 70- feet without much effort - with small flies.

It was not great for large bushy flies (only a 3-wt), but for most of my PA fishing it was perfect.

I now have a faster action 4-wt fly rod that I use - it doesn't give me any "feel" like the slower action rod, and I don't like that at all. It works but it is not as "fun" to cast.

Regarding building a rod: I sold the Echo-3wt to make room for a new rod build.

I'm building a FlyLogic 3/4 wt. This rod has much the same action as the echo I described. I built one for my father and I love it. You should look into these blanks if you want a small stream rod. You can get them on ebay. The one I built was an 8-ft 3/4 wt, 3-piece (I think this particular rod is no longer available). It was the FL Optimum model I believe. The blank I got was about $50. The FlyLogic site has quite a bit of info on the rods. The only place I've found the blanks is on ebay though.
 
I nymph most of the time, so I like a long rod with moderate/moderate-fast action. I use my new avid that I built. I like the feel as the nymphs bounce along the bottom and the twitch of fish nibbles.
 
I prefer stiffer and longer for nymphing, softer for dries, and compromise with various moderate and moderate fast action rods in 7, 7.5, 8, 8.5, 9 ft. depending on stream size.

If I have a hunch that I will more than likely be nymphing, which is often on the wild trout and special regs streams of medium size and up, I use the stiffest 5 or 6 wt of the bunch.

For small streams that usually means dry flies and my 7 or 7.5 footers for 4 or 5 wt. with 7 ft leaders. Easy loading is a big plus in small spaces and the softer moderate actions allow that. There are so many good, inexpensive rods in this size range that I would not build one unless you just like to build things and want to fill the small stream niche in your collection.

In general, the longer the rod and larger weight the line, the more expensive and perhaps faster the rod needs to be because the lower priced rods in the 9 ft for 6 wt. and larger tend to be too heavy and tiring. I only buy rods about 3.75 ounces or less for trout.

I bought a 10 ft, 5 wt Pacific Bay blank about 10 years ago that was supposed to be fast action, but after building it turned out to be the slowest rod in my collection. I guess the lesson for me on that was to take the advertised action with a grain of salt.

Outfits like St.Croix have fancy equipment to line guides up quickly and perfectly, plus lots of quality control checks and experienced artisans. It is very difficult for an individual to do better as far as rod performance goes. However, I wish the manufacturers would get a grip on grips. Everything you see on a 6 wt or less is a reverse half wells. I prefer Fenwick/half wells or full wells. And everything on a 7 wt and up has a fighting butt, often not removable. And all reel seats are uplocking. Altering those options are the kinds of customizations that I would make if building a rod strictly for my own use (as opposed to selling on speculation).

If you haven't already, you might want to check out some rod building boards where your inquiry would be right up their alley. I am not familar with them but a quick google should do it.
 
'I'll cast it no matter what the action it is"

I have to admit I would go to Dan Baileys and ask

"What rod is best"?
They would rod me up.
-never tested them but would glance at the label.
Scientific Anglers-glass
Fenwick-then Sage so I don't know if they were right for me but happy with them.lol
 
First you need to understand exactly what you mean by action. There is a lot of confusion out there about action. A fast action rod is one with a weak tip that tapers into a strong mid and butt section quickly. A slow action rod has a stronger tip that gradually tapers into a weak mid and butt section. This is what causes slow action rods to flex "into the handle" . Short, delicate, small fly presentations work best with something slower. Long, wind cutting big fly presentation work well with a fast rod. If you have to pick up lots of line off the water, fast is what you want.
The confusion is compounded by manufacturers descriptions. The posts above have examples. Just because manufacturer A describes a blank as fast, what does that mean? Faster than what? Is it faster than Manufacturer B? You see the problem. It is also implied by many manufacturers that the material the rod is made from contributes to the action ie. generation 3 graphite is faster than glass, and that fast action is higher quality. You also can't change the action of the rod by putting a heavy line on it to slow it down. That just overloads the rod and deepens the flex making it feel slower. You can't change the way a rod flexes by adding or subtracking the weight.
Send me an e-email to onebyonerods@comcast.net if you want to discuss further. It can get a little lenghty on a forum like this.
 
Abbrod,

Thanks for the description. My understanding is as you describe. When I heard "fast action tip" it threw up a red flag for me. I am glad you took the time to respond. Please feel free to get "lengthy" on the subject in the forum.

Someone else from above mentioned that using "noodley" rods in Erie allows for a sensitive feel of the bite on these finicky fish...Another misnomer. The soft tip and mid section of a noodle rod (spinning) or medium action fly rod of a length over 9' allows the flex to carry over a longer distance giving the rod more cushion on the hard fast surges and runs the steelhead make often during the fight. However, it is important to have a rod that doesn't flex into the handle so you can turn the bohemeth when they sulk in a fast run. Faster action rods can't cushion that blow as well and break offs happen.

Thanks for posting
 
I, for one, look forward to a long post on the subject.

Its just one more thing that would fit nicely into a FAQ for these parts. Maybe if you post it, I'll be so motivated as to save it for such a project...
 
bigjohn58 wrote:
I'll cast it also no matter what the action is...I just wondered what actions favor certain styles of fishing and casting. I'm kind of thinking of building another rod.

I would just look at what I don't have that might be fun. Buying a complete rod I might take an entire other approach.
 
Good post by Abbrod. A few more things.

Forgetting action for a moment, there are basically two types of fly rods made today - one designed for fishing and one designed for casting? Most less than high-end fast action rods made today are designed for distance casting and not fishing. A lot is marketing hype convincing everyone that a rod that throws 80 feet of line is better than a rod that only throws 60 feet of line. The fact remains that a well-made fiberglass fishing rod from 50 years ago is still a well-made fishing rod today. The only thing that went obsolete with that well-made glass fishing rod was the marketing not the rod design.

Slow or medium action rods require a more relaxed casting stroke and you really need to let the rod do the work and these rods are not exactly forgiving to goofs in timing. Fast action rods are more forgiving to timing goofs and the fact is most fly fisherman don’t have good casting technique. Most are too rushed and overpower the rod not letting the rod do the work and a fast action rod is definitely more forgiving to less than perfect technique.

Regarding rod design/taper, no matter whether slow, medium or fast action the rod’s design/taper is all based on a certain amount of weight that can be carried in the air without overloading and stressing the rod. The reason most fast action rods carry and cast more line than a medium or slow action rod of the same line rating is simply because most fast rods are underrated while most medium and slow action rods are true rated. The rating standard is supposed to be 30 feet of line from the rod’s tip and 30 feet of 5 weight line weighs more than 30 feet of 4 weight line, which weighs more than 30 feet of 3 weight line. So most fast action 4 weight “labeled” rods that can carry 60-70 feet of 4 weight line in the air are really 5.5 - 6 weight rods based on traditional 30 foot ratings. Try fishing that 4 weight fast action rod at a distance of 25 feet with a 7x tippet and see how well it fishes and protects tippets. Conversely, take a true rated 6 weight slow or medium action rod and underline it with 4 weight line and you will be able to carry 60-70 feet of line in the air.

Another problem with most fast action rods (excepting high end rods like Sage Z-Axis, Winston Biix, etc.) is the tip is too stiff because mfgs use larger diameter mandrels resulting in extra material because overall it is easier and less expensive to make a straight rod this way – but the tip section is far too stiff for the rod and it doesn’t protect tippets nor allow “feel” when working in close. This is one reason why many fisherman over line their fast action rods for working close distances – the rod is not properly designed and cannot effectively load the rated line. A well-made high-end fast action rod (Sage Z-Axis, Winston Biix) doesn’t need to be overlined for working at close distances.

Lastly, as others have said, there are no standards for rod ratings. Sage’s medium action is basically Winston’s fast action.

Personally, I prefer a medium action rod simply because I enjoy casting a medium action rod and also because a medium action rod is better able to protect fine tippets and absorb the initial shock of sometimes violent hits especially when fishing streamers downstream when the full weight of the fish plus the current is instantaneously.
 
GreenWeenie provides some outstanding information here. In addition to the under rating of rods by manufacturers that GreenWeenie cites above, the line manufacturers have also taken the liberty to stray from AFTMA line standards and sell lines that compensate for this trend in rods. Many high tech lines are heavier than the standard so now it works well with the under rated rod at "normal" fishing distances. No wonder why nobody can figure this stuff out! I have the feeling this post could go on for days as there are bound to be many more questions than answers.
By the way, my favorite trout rod is a slower action glass rod. It is definetely a great "fishing" rod. If I need to cast 70 feet to get to the fish, I usually try wading into a better position to make a 20 foot cast with accuracy and control. I think most people fishing for trout do it this way also. It's just not that cool to try out a new rod in the parking lot of the fly shop and only lay out 30 feet of line. That's why we buy the one that we can lay out the entire line with only to find that it does not work that well in close range where we do the majority of our fishing.
 
While I don't have near the understanding that greenweenie and abbrod do, here is my take on the subject. I only really own two types of rods. Medium fast (one of the best all around actions IMO for a large percentage of casters) and fast. Here is why:

If I simply want a rod for casting distance or aerializing through tough wind I only want a truly fast rod. As stated it helps to have the tightest loops possible for those types of situations. When fishing salt for large game fish is when I really like a fast rod. Long casts into the wind when tippet protection isn't as big of an issue because it's typically pretty heavy. Also feel isn't the most important factor in these situations, which you don't get from many tip flex rods. (There are a few rods ie Sage z axis with good feel from tip, thus the hype, but too expensive for me)

For most freshwater applications I prefer the med. fast rods. Still a decent amount of backbone but I think you get much better feel from the rods. They do decent jobs at protecting tippets and are good for bottom bouncing nymphs but can cast some heavy streamers as well. Much of my salmanoid fishing is using nymphs and these type of rods serve me well.

I must say I don't care for slower rods like glass & grass. It's seems like too much work for me to slow my stroke down enough to let the rod work.

There may be some flaws in my theory or reasoning and it doesn't apply to all rods (some very high end being the exceptions). But for the most part this is what I stick by when looking at rods.
 
The information here is very insightful, but I can't help but thinking that the rod action that is "best" is the one you are most comfortable using. It seems incorrect to imply that only slow rods "load." All rods properly rated and lined load, they just load differently and more or less quickly one might say. I have rods of all actions and with my faster rods, I just have to remind myself the the line bends the rod at a different point in the backcast and reaches the critical "fully loaded" point sooner than on slower rods.

[I edited my post because the way I originally structured the final comment was awkward. Hopefully this doesn't change the agreement of GreenWeenie expressed below].
 
Student and Jack are both correct. Here’s some more crap to consider.

Fishing rods, no matter what action, are load-bearing tools. A fly rod doesn’t know or even care if it is throwing 3 weight or 6 weight line, as all it responds to is the load/weight it is carrying. If the load is more than it is capable of handling, it won’t perform. If the load is less than it is capable of handling, it won’t perform.

All rods, no matter what action, have a certain loading point on the performance/design curve that is the optimum point of performance for that rod. All rods have this optimal design point for carrying weight irrespective of action and that weight is determined by (a) length of line times (b) line weight (density). Now, the key to making a good rod of any action is making the performance curve as flat as possible for as long as possible on both sides of the optimal design point

Now, the industry standard for the weight standard for determining a rod’s line rating is 30 feet of line so the only variable is then line size. If a particular rod is under loaded at 30 feet of 4 weight line, you shouldn’t increase the feet of 4 weight line to 50 feet to increase overall weight you should increase the line weight to 5 holding 30 feet constant. Although never exact, the line weight used at 30 feet of line that comes closest to performance at the rod’s optimum design point is supposed to be the rod’s rated line capacity irrespective of action.

So, in theory, if you needed to throw 70 feet of 6 weight line, in the truest sense you should get an accurately labeled 8 weight rod of any action and underline it with 6 weight line.

But that is not what is happening today.

Traditionally speaking, fast action, just like medium and slow action, is a type of rod taper/performance and fast action really shouldn’t have anything to do with the ability to throw more line than any other taper. However, somewhere over the past 30 years fast action has become associated with bombing 90 foot casts.

Complicating this is rod companies are now labeling rods by who knows what standard. A 9 foot, fast action rod labeled “4 weight” by pure definition should not be able to carry 80 feet of 4 weight line in the air. This is not a true 4 weight rod – it is a 6 or maybe even 7 weight rod labeled 4 weight and people think it is a great rod because it throws 80 feet of 4 weight line. The fact is all the rod cares about is load and 80 feet of 4 weight line is probably pretty close in overall weight to 30 feet of 6/7 weight line. It would be like taking a Corvette chassis and engine and welding on a VW Bug body and then saying, “My VW Bug can go from 0-60 in 4.2 seconds and has a top speed of 190 mph.” It’s not a VW Bug it’s a Corvette labeled VW Bug.

That being said this is now where the performance curve of a rod comes into play.

When fishing you are not throwing the design weight every cast but rather using the rod over a range of performance points (i.e., line distances change continually, which changes the carrying weight). So really you want to get a rod that performs best over a range of casting distances that you will be fishing. This is where “fast action” starts to get associated with distance casting and slow/medium action gets associated with up close casting.

While I may be wrong my understanding of performance of a slow/medium action rod is that these rods have a flatter performance curve skewed below the optimum design point while the fast action rods have a flatter performance curve skewed above the optimum design point. In practical terms this is why slow/medium action rods are better able to load/cast at shorter distances than fast action rods while fast action rods are better able to load/cast at longer distances than slow/medium action rods. This is where the whole thing of line distance starts to come into play and fast action begins to get associated with longer distances.

Further compounding the problem is as I noted before, most fast action rods, except the high end ones, have too stiff tips. For close distance casting with a fast action rod you are casting off the tip with more of a flick of the wrist as opposed to a casting stroke. Poorly made fast action rods can’t do this and this is why many people end up over lining their fast action rods for up close work.

The fact is rod selection all comes down to how you are going to fish it. If you are going to fish mostly light tippets in the 15 – 30 foot range, more than likely a 3 weight fast action rod isn’t the rod you want. You probably would be best suited with a 4/5 medium action rod unless you got yourself a high end fast action rod that does have a soft tip. If you are fishing waters like the Delaware where you regularly need to make 50-60 foot casts and you’re not using tippets much less than 5x, a medium action 5 weight rod probably isn’t the rod you want.

As for salt water fishing, salt water fishing is not about finesse and tippet protection, it is about throwing a large wind resistant fly in windy conditions a long distance. This requires line speed and tight loops and while Lefy Kreh and Joan Wolff could certainly put us all to shame with a slow action rod, 99% of us benefit from a heavy duty fast action rod with a lot of backbone to accomplish this. I complete agree with Student that fast action is the way to go in salt water however, going back to pure technicalities, most 9 weight fast action salt water rods aren’t 9 weight rods based on the 30 foot rating criteria, they are 11 or 12 weight rods. But the fact is circumstances in salt water (long powerful casts) are best suited to fast action rods for the vast majority of us.
 
I really don't cast all that well or know that much about fast/moderate/slow but here's what I prefer:

I also have a Loomis GL3--it's a 3 wt and I like that for dry flies.

I guess my "faster" rods are Sage RPLs--I like them for heavier streamers, (Clousers), nymphs and trying to punch through the wind.
 
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