Leader Length in FFO Waters

[MD_Gene]

I understand that there is a regulation on leader length in Fly Fishing Only waters. Can someone please point me to the section in the PA Regulations where that is stated? Thanks in advance.

 

[MD_Gene]

Found it on page 20 of the Reg Summary.

 

[silverfox]

Which is something to consider if you're doing the mono rig thing for "euro nymphing"...

 

[Dave_W]

silverfox wrote:
Which is something to consider if you're doing the mono rig thing for "euro nymphing"...

Agree - this is worth pointing out.

While I have never heard of any FFO anglers being warned or cited for excessive leader length, folks should know that this reg exists (and has for a long time). While I'm not a Euro nymph guy, I do utilize some applications that involve mono in length and I've always been careful to insure that, when in FFO areas, that I don't have more than 18' of mono.

 

[Maurice]

Which poses the question; Is euro- nymphing considered fly fishing?

I lobbied very hard when I found the proposal to change the regs in ffo areas a few years back. They wanted to drop the leader length and “fly reel” language cater to euro- nymphers but in doing so it would technically allow center pin fishing reels and unlimited mono making the section not fly fishing at all. Thankfully Dr Bachman (then commissioner) heard me. Even he hadnt seen the change burried in the quarterly meeting proposal tacked onto other regs changes related to lake harvests or some other unrelated topic.

The question is how far can you go with a gear tweek in a hobby before it changes the hobby itself? Its all fishing but I get it, but if we no longer use fly line to propel the “fly” now tied on a jig hook, is it really fly fishing? Just because we are spooling it on a fly reel and using a scott/sage/orvis(insert your fav rod co) fly rod?

I say no! Keep in mind I use bead heads and shot to get the flies down, but ya gotta draw the line somewhere. And my leaders are rarely over 1.25 times the length of the rod because it eliminates the effectiveness of fly casting.

Euro nymphing may be effective and accepted method in Fly fishing tourneys but perhaps it should be a class of its own. Call them euro nymphing tourneys, or chuck and duck comps.

Why not put all that mono on a spin reel? Wouldnt it be easier to cast?
The end.

 

[afishinado]

Maurice wrote:
Which poses the question; Is euro- nymphing considered fly fishing?

I lobbied very hard when I found the proposal to change the regs in ffo areas a few years back. They wanted to drop the leader length and “fly reel” language cater to euro- nymphers but in doing so it would technically allow center pin fishing reels and unlimited mono making the section not fly fishing at all. Thankfully Dr Bachman (then commissioner) heard me. Even he hadnt seen the change burried in the quarterly meeting proposal tacked onto other regs changes related to lake harvests or some other unrelated topic.

The question is how far can you go with a gear tweek in a hobby before it changes the hobby itself? Its all fishing but I get it, but if we no longer use fly line to propel the “fly” now tied on a jig hook, is it really fly fishing? Just because we are spooling it on a fly reel and using a scott/sage/orvis(insert your fav rod co) fly rod?

I say no! Keep in mind I use bead heads and shot to get the flies down, but ya gotta draw the line somewhere. And my leaders are rarely over 1.25 times the length of the rod because it eliminates the effectiveness of fly casting.

Euro nymphing may be effective and accepted method in Fly fishing tourneys but perhaps it should be a class of its own. Call them euro nymphing tourneys, or chuck and duck comps.

Why not put all that mono on a spin reel? Wouldnt it be easier to cast?
The end.

A decade or more a go in the comp fishing world long mono leaders were used. The comp rules were changed to allowing only twice the rod length of leader. Since then, lightweight nymph fly lines were developed and used by many comp nymphers.

Few anglers use all mono to fish flies. The ones that do just need to cut back to an 18' or less leader in the handful of FFO reg stream sections in PA.

"Chuck & duck" is an entirely different thing which is shooting a heavily weighted shot and flies through the guides like spin fishing.

Neither of the above is practiced to any great degree in open waters....heck, spin fishing is better and easier to execute, why use a fly rod?! And I've never seen anyone trying either method on FFO waters.

The whole thing is making a mountain out of a molehill, or in this case a king salmon out of a gemmie...

 

[wgmiller]

I agree, Afish. I recently adopted Euro nymphing techniques and am fishing a long leader (+/- 18'). It's attached to a fly line, although I do little actual casting. To me, it's no different than "high stick nymphing" where the fly line is close the the last guide. I understand the nature of the 18' regulation, but I think it was more than likely developed in a different time period. The regulations should evolve with time and as different techniques converge with tackle requirements. The centerpin argument is a valid one, and I think the goal in an FFO setting should be to exclude such tackle. Whether you're Euro nymphing, high stick nymphing, or using "traditional" fly casting techniques, you're still fly fishing.

YMMV...

 

[dc410]

I think that way back in the day (which was many years ago) the Fish Commission established the maximum leader length for FFO areas to be (as was stated above) roughly twice the length (+) of the normal fly rod. Way back then, a 9’ rod was a fairly long rod. As far as nymphing techniques go today a 9’ rod is a short rod in regard to today’s “nymphing” rods. As long as I have been flyfishing this regulation has been in place to establish a defined line between flyfishing and other fishing techniques because flyfishing is the only fishing technique that uses the weight of the line to propel the lure (fly?). I have always adhered to this regulation when fishing on any PA FFO regulated water.

However, fishing a live nightcrawler (and I imagine a heavily weighted sculpin pattern as well) on a fly rod and reel spooled totally with 4 lb. test mono is an absolute deadly fishing (not flyfishing) technique and in my early years I did a lot of that on open regulation waters.

 

[Bamboozle]

Considering Tenkara which uses no fly line is legal in FFO areas, I doubt the 18" rule applies to Euro nymphing. However, if I was a practitioner I'd write the PFBC for clarification.

Hair splitting aside, both are well within the sprint of fly fishing whether you agree or not.

 

[JackM]

If you are fly fishing, you know it. No one needs an 18' leader to fly fish.

 

[shakey]

to me ,18 feet is really pushing it.

i rarely have a leader longer than the rod,unless i am using a really short rod.

 

[DaveS]

I use a long leader often. Especially for larger, leader shy trout. I rarely exceed 14,16’ and with some wind it can turn into a shet show.

I thought for sure Shakey was gonna ask why nymphers are in FFO water. LOL

 

[PennKev]

Maurice wrote:
Why not put all that mono on a spin reel? Wouldnt it be easier to cast?

If you used a spinning reel, both the fly guys and centerpinners would make fun of you.

 

[shakey]

DaveS wrote:
I use a long leader often. Especially for larger, leader shy trout. I rarely exceed 14,16’ and with some wind it can turn into a shet show.

I thought for sure Shakey was gonna ask why nymphers are in FFO water. LOL

too funny! i guess i am a little predictable

 

[maxima12]

18 feet has been the regs for at least 50 years. Isn't that enough, try to find one! I have used 18, experimented with 25 footers. Takes a whole lotta years to develop one that turns over with precise accuracy.

Most will never use a leader of this length. You can read about this in books. But they are selling books. Dynamic, yes, Logical, no.


Pay me 30 bucks and I will build one 40 feet.


Always thought I could give raejeff a couple extra feet.


but he never asked, guess he's good!


Maxima12

 

[Chaz]

My question is, how do you even control a leader that is 18 fet. I would suggest that unless you’re tight line fishing you can’t. And I would even say it is better having a much shorter leader, you can control.

 

[afishinado]

The long length of mono for tightline nymphing is not really a leader. The angler is looking to keep mono all the way back into the guides in order to prevent sag in the line to maintain a tighter more sensitive connection.

 

[skeeter]

Afish pointed out the main point I was going to make. I euro-nymph, tightline, whatever you want to call it. It's a style to nymph flies (I use 2 flies) and I love tying and fishing artificial flies (if you will .

My leader is technically from my sighter (a 1' section of bright mono used to track) down to the flies. It is tapered from 20lb down to 6x tippet that i build myself. This section is 7-9 feet long. Between my leader and the traditional 3Wt "fly-line" (which is on my spool for most of my casting) is about an 18' long section of 25lb high-vis mono shooting line used in skagit. Its a running line used in skagit which is technically "fly fishing". In my opinion the running line is not a leader, it is unweighted line connecting to my 7-9' leader. Regarding control, yes I can place it where I need to effortlessly. IMHO it is still fly fishing but to each their own.

 

[dano]

skeeter wrote:


....about an 18' long section of 25lb high-vis mono shooting line used in skagit. Its a running line used in skagit which is technically "fly fishing". In my opinion the running line is not a leader, it is unweighted line connecting to my 7-9' leader. to each their own.

Huh?
I'm not sure what you mean by skagit casting is "technically" fly fishing. It is exactly fly fishing. I'ts flyline to leader to fly. The fly line is used to propel the fly to the target.
Skagit lines used to only come with the head integrated with the running line, which is just how WF lines are still being made. Since some like to change heads frequently, it was convenient and economical to just purchase heads and use the loop to loop system instead of carrying and changing reel spools.
In tight quarters, you can roll cast and shoot a squirmy wormy or mop fly a long way with that hi-viz running line and a skagit head.

 

[dano]

If you want to get technical, then euro-nymphing is not "technically""fly fishing".
Back in the day, we used to call it "mooching" .