Help me pick the right rod weight

[mike_richardson]

Good morning everyone,

I have just be given a great opportunity. I am working with a company to get them established in the fly fishing business. They are an outfitter for deer, game birds, and water fowel right now. They are adding fly fishing to their line up of out fitting services.

I am their right hand man in setting up for their new ventures and will be doing some guiding for them, as well as supplying their flies. The company wants to offer a few set ups to have on site for me to teach customers to fly fish. The section of water we will be fishing is a private club. The small fish in this section of water are 16" and go up to 30". The average size is 18" - 24".

I was thinking that my standard 5 weight set up would not be the best choice in this situation, but I am worried than an 8 wieght would be too much. I will be fishing the club this weekend with my 5 weight, and also taking my 8 weight along to test things out. I catch a lot of trout in the 16" to 18" range and feel a 5 weight is ideal for trout of this size. you get the most action and have to play the fish out. I don't really land a whole lot of fish above the 20" mark, unfortunately so I am not sure if the 5 weight is too light for fish this size. I do know that while fishing in Erie I had 2 chromers on that I could not even turn with my 5 weight.

My question for you all is this: Is a 6 weight the most ideal rod for this situation. Stiff enough to turn the big fish, but light enough to really teach these guys good casting techniques. How do you think a rookie fly fisherman would do battling a 24" trout on a 5 or 6 weight rod. I think starting out with an 8 weight would be tough to get the hang of things. May be that is because I started out with a 5 weight.

Any helpful insight is appreciated. Please do not bash on this thread about "Pay to play" and such. I am very excited to get a start at turning my love of teaching people to fly fish as a career, and please don't ruin that for me. Most of their potential clients have never picked up a fly rod in their life.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[SurfCowboyXX]

5wt rods should be fine. Battling fish is almost never the issue , proper presentation almost always is...

 

[csoult]

I was thinking the same thing. Your 5wt should be fine.

 

[pwk5017]

I have caught plenty of steelhead on my 5wt. In my opinion, its more enjoyable to fish with the lightest rod possible.

 

[mike_richardson]

I agree pwk5017. I love battling with light weight rods but is a rookie going to be able to handle it?

 

[Lonewolve]

Mike its about rod positioning during the fight. I use a five weight most of the time be it for Trout, Smallies,Panfish, and fLargemouth. If I may.... take a rod out with a friend and take out about forty feet of flyline you will hold the end of the line, have him hold the rod with your drag setting set good,also have him pinch the line against the grip now have him pull the rod like he is fighting a fish start at 12:00 an just pull the line you have ..not much resistance BTW be care full you dont wrap the lina around the tip or you could snap the tip off, next have him lower the rod to say 11:00 o clock an do the same thing a lil more tension, tehn at 10:00 even more, and then point the rod right at you . Also remeber when a fish jumps the rod goes towards the surface of the water, when the fish dives you pull up. when the fish goes left..you go right and vice versa.
Any Angler should be able to land small steelhead up to 10 pounds with a 5 weight. It depends on other factors too. Like tippet weight rod action ect. Too light of a tippet and you can literally kill a fish if its played too long. IMHO 5 weight is a great all around line weight.
One thing you didn't mention is width of the stream average depth is ther alot of overhanging limbs and branches ect.
Do you prefer a double taper or a weight foward. Is there primarily dry fly water, or do you alo have a bit of nymphing,as well as pocket water, riffles?
Remember this fish are fought with the rod and the anglers skill, the reel drag is there also , but usually set to keep the reel from backlashing an creating a birds nest.

 

[WildTigerTrout]

mike_richardson wrote:
I agree pwk5017. I love battling with light weight rods but is a rookie going to be able to handle it?

If you show them the proper way to handle the flyrod while fighting a bigger fish they should be fine.

 

[mike_richardson]

I am going to scope the scene this weekend to determine length. I am a die hard 9' 5 wt guy. I fish this set up on large streams and native trout streams alike. i am going to check for overhanging cover to determine if 8 ft is the more likely rod.

I will be setting them up for mostly medium weight flies. By that i mean lead weighted size 6 streamers often with brass heads. This was another reason i was thinking of 6 wt in a more fast action. There is not a lot of dry fly fishing on this stretch but i was going to set up at least one rod with, dry flies in mind.

Lone wolf I was planning on setting up a brief course before we hit the water on casting and landing fish and i just might steel your easy to follow notes. Things that i overlook being that i have caught tons of trout. it is just second nature these days. thank you for reminding me. I want not only to have these people catch fish but i want to educate them at the same time. I want them to pick up and retain the points you have made.

I am also planning on doing a brief stream side ecology session. Maybe lift a few rock, desribe why i am selecting certain paterns. this way when the customer leaves, not only will they catch fish but also be more versed on the sport we all love.

 

[boli]

I'm no expert as you know Mike, but I think you are over thinking it. I think the 5wt will be just fine. Remember, they are beginners. You are going to be teaching them from scratch if i'm reading into this correct. Casting, presentation, etc are what will matter the most. Obviously you want them to catch fish as well, and I honestly think that the 5wt will do the trick. Good luck. Sounds like a pretty cool endeavor.

 

[ryguyfi]

Line weight I believe is more dependent on what flies and techniques you're fishing rather than how big of a fish you're catching. Yes you don't want to fish a 12lb fish on a 7ft 3wt, but I'd rather have a rod be able to present my flies correctly than have it be "perfect" for fighting a fish. You can land a fish on a sapling if you really want to, but try presenting a sz #26 midge or tossing a #2 streamer on it.

My advise would be to get a 9' 4wt for dry flies. That will allow you to do some nymphing too but also be more delicate for the hatches that occur. Then get a 9'6wt for your heavier nymphs and bigger streamers. I think a 9'5wt can do both of these, but neither in an efficient mannor. Having at least 1 of the 4wt and 6wt will allow you to pick and chose. Plus if you're guiding then you have both rigged up and can switch between each if necessary throughout the day.

Just my .02

 

[Pghtrouthunter]

Are you sure you are ready to start advising paying clients?

 

[gulfgreyhound]

I think a 6 or 7 is the ticket. Playing a fish to long isn't good. Rookies will misuse and abuse tackle. You wouldn't want some rookie clamping down on the line an having a rod blow up? GG

 

[Lonewolve]

Mike,
Sure use that information by all means. Imho a guide should have several rods at their guiding disposal preferably medium fast actions. If a client can feel the cast , they can get the rythm. And if the have the rythm they can cast which leads to the presentation for the riddle presented to every separate type pr piece of water.
There is a big difference between guiding and and being a Ghillie.
As for rods for a starting guide a 4 weight in say 7-71/2 foot will do ya good for small to medium streams with cover. A Wullf triangle taper or a double taper will suffice for rollcasting an single hand spey techniques as well as dry fly presentations.
On medium to larger waters a 10 footer is even better than a 9 footer. You can mend and reach out a bit farther ,which alot of times matters other times not so.
Nice thing about any five weight rod is that it will cast and fish well with a line weight under or one line weight over the 5 weight recommendation from the rod manufacturer.
A nice medium fast action rod in 7' - 7 1/2' for small streams will suffice.
A nice medium fast action rod in 10' for a medium to large river rod will fit the bill for nymphing, dryfly, streamer,and softhackles.
both rods in 5 weight are IMHO a great choice. only thing would be have reels with spare spools for a four weight line and a six weight line.
There is so much more to guiding too. A guide teaches as well as puts a person on fish. He does this by showing a person the ways the local waters are most productive through various techniques. He ascertains a individuals skill level an tries to match the water an conditions to the individual. He also shares his knowledge openly with respect . From beginner to advanced all anglers can learn from a another angler/guide.No one has seen it all. The water is always changing an so thus so should the angler's attempts. I wish you well any questions feel free to Pm me. I have hired guides i have also guided as well as taught flytying.
Do remember in Pa you need to be licensed and have insurance to be a guide . Wishing you Luck.

 

[mike_richardson]

I feel confident I can show them a great time fishing, teach them the ecology and such of the stream, and deliver a quality experience. No I do not know every techincal term or fishing technique but I can teach people how to catch fish, and how to read water effectively.

I am however learning more in depth techniques and paterns. I want to grow as a flyfisherman and learn much more than i currently do. I will learn this stream like the back of my hand and pass this knowledge to the customers.

Ryguyfi,

I am surprised you do not like the 9' 5wt rod. This has worked for me in all types of situations.

 

[djs12354]

Mike,

You've already gotten a lot of good advice. Take this one as reassurance.
I think the 5 weight is the way to go. It's what most of those that take up the sport will be guided toward and can certainly handle larger fish.
Remember that, even if you were having your clients use spinning tackle, fighting a larger fish is a learning experience. Some people never learn how to handle one, even with heavy tackle.
Let your enthusiasm show as you teach and enjoy the process.

 

[SBecker]

Shouldn't a future guide already know this stuff? Just sayin.....

 

[streamerguy]

Good luck with your new endeavor, I'm sure you'll do just fine. Lots of great advice given so far.

Shouldn't a future guide already know this stuff? Just sayin.....

Keep in mind he's guiding at a private club probably loaded with tons of pelletheads....

 

[mike_richardson]

I do know this stuff. I was only asking for the most all around rod weight and possibly a few tips. Thanks for all constructive advice.

 

[boli]

The question will have several opinions. Do what you think best and I hope it works out for you. No need for the negativity, guys.

 

[Chaz]

The biggest question I have is where will you be taking the clients, Big Streams, medium streams small stream? The next question is, Trout, Bass or Other? A good fast or medium fast 4 wt is fine for small water no matter what you are fishing for, but you'll want something with a bit more oomph for bigger water.
I've never not landed a big fish if I played it right on my 7'6" 4 wt rod, even at Fishing Creek or Spring Creek. You don't need a 9 ft rod for those streams, you simply match the rod to the fishing you're doing. On larger streams you need a longer rod for leverage and casting distance, but the weight can be irrelevant as long as you play the fish correctly.