Graphite Rod differences

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longbowman58

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Jun 11, 2012
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Is there truly a noticable difference in graphite rods? I have a 5 yr. old IM6 5 wt. rod and was thinking maybe I should get a new one but when I look at the really expensive ones in the shop I can't seem to feel any difference.
 
I can tell a huge difference between a 5 year old IM6 rod and a more current blank. Heck, I didn't know they were still making IM6 5 years ago. I would say its a lot harder to tell the difference between a current $200 rod versus a $700 rod. However I think you could surely tell the difference between a 5 year old IM6 and a more modern $200 graphite composite on the stream. Having said that, there are a lot of "old school" collectors out there that really like IM6 as it's a slow, soft rod generally.
 
There is a large difference on multiple levels. The new rods are lighter and more durable and that makes for more casts in a day. However, you have to know what you are getting for the type of fishing you do.

For instance, I had an Orvis Helios 10' 7wt (at a next to nothing price because of being on the Pro Staff...no way I would pay that much for a rod) that I was going to use for steelheading. These rods are made of a single thin layer of graphite that is really strong. Well, it's true, if there are no defects in the graphite...the bending strength is incredible. I broke that rod 4 times. Any little nick to the outside of the graphite created a significant weak spot in the graphic that leads to stress risers when landing a big fish. So, if your rod is going to take any abuse getting into the stream or laying it down on the stream...it's the wrong set-up for big fish.

They finally swaped that rod out for a 3wt instead. I have never had a problem since.

So, anyway, be sure to check the graphite construct and consider your application. If you are tough on rods (and I am), get something with multiple layers. And, choose a company with a warranty. TFO in particular has very well priced rods with a lifetime warranty. Echo is another well priced rod company to consider.
 
longbowman58 wrote:
I can't seem to feel any difference.

Well, then, there you have it.

If its not broke, why go broke trying to fix it?
 
Everyone knows fly rods attained perfection in 1994, it's a scientific fact.
 

Yes. Without a doubt.


Find a Helios or Helios 2 and cast your old IM6 side by side with it. At the very least you'll notice a drastic difference in weight.

Graphite rods have been improving on a yearly basis for many years now. from one year to the next you may see only slightly improved rods come onto the market. However, after 5, 10, or 20 years the improvements add up and the differences are very noticable.

Kev
 
well said Gfen.

find something you like and stick with it
 
PatrickC wrote:
There is a large difference on multiple levels. The new rods are lighter and more durable and that makes for more casts in a day. However, you have to know what you are getting for the type of fishing you do.

For instance, I had an Orvis Helios 10' 7wt (at a next to nothing price because of being on the Pro Staff...no way I would pay that much for a rod) that I was going to use for steelheading. These rods are made of a single thin layer of graphite that is really strong. Well, it's true, if there are no defects in the graphite...the bending strength is incredible. I broke that rod 4 times. Any little nick to the outside of the graphite created a significant weak spot in the graphic that leads to stress risers when landing a big fish. So, if your rod is going to take any abuse getting into the stream or laying it down on the stream...it's the wrong set-up for big fish.

They finally swaped that rod out for a 3wt instead. I have never had a problem since.

So, anyway, be sure to check the graphite construct and consider your application. If you are tough on rods (and I am), get something with multiple layers. And, choose a company with a warranty. TFO in particular has very well priced rods with a lifetime warranty. Echo is another well priced rod company to consider.

More durable than IM6? Show me the proof. And Jdaddy they still make IM6 rods, a great material.
 
"I look at the really expensive ones in the shop I can't seem to feel any difference"

depends on what "look" means- wiggle, cast or fish?
you notice the difference more and more in that order
 
Is there truly a noticable difference in graphite rods?
Not as much as there is between older vintage fiberglass and a new one.

Newer ones like a Steffen s-glass or Kettle Creek e-glass 7' or 7'6" 3/4 weights are really sweet.
 
troutbert wrote:
Everyone knows fly rods attained perfection in 1994, it's a scientific fact.

This wasn't serious, it was based on the famous quote from Homer Simpson:

"Why do you need new bands? Everyone knows rock attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact."

(I hate having to explain my "jokes.")
 
Yeah, fly rods slowly improve, and the improvement over time has been very noticable.

That said, the improvement has come from higher modulus graphite, as well as improved resin. The result is that rods can either be made faster, or can be made "just as fast" with less material (i.e. lighter), or some combination of the above.

Those with significantly thinned walls will NOT be more durable. Perhaps less so, and at best, the same.

And, while this has happened, many anglers are desiring SLOWER rods, which are available, and are not all that much improved. If you don't desire a faster rod than is available, there hasn't been much improvement.

In my hands, I feel a HUGE difference between various rods and tapers, regardless of when they were designed and made. But I can't say any of them are better or worse than any others. I can only say what I personally prefer, which varies depending on the application. And there are plenty of old rods that I like. The only thing I can say about modern technology is that the "light and fast" category has added even lighter and faster options over time. i.e. one end of the spectrum has been lengthened. But for me, all rods, anywhere on that spectrum, still have their time and place. Every rod is a trade-off, and excels at something while falling short on something else.
 
pcray1231 wrote:
In my hands, I feel a HUGE difference between various rods and tapers, regardless of when they were designed and made. But I can't say any of them are better or worse than any others. I can only say what I personally prefer, which varies depending on the application. And there are plenty of old rods that I like. The only thing I can say about modern technology is that the "light and fast" category has added even lighter and faster options over time. i.e. one end of the spectrum has been lengthened. But for me, all rods, anywhere on that spectrum, still have their time and place. Every rod is a trade-off, and excels at something while falling short on something else.

Well said.

What I don't like BTW, it when a company talks about how they have the hardest resin in the world like that matters over a single layer of graphite. If you are so careful with your rods that it never touches anything but the air you cast through...it's fine. One scratch from a tree branch walking into that remote water....not so fine. Or God forbid you are just tired and not casting well one day and your poor casting stroke leads to a BH woolly bugger hitting the rod. I could be more careful and protect that rod like it's my child. But come on, I want to be able to set the thing down once in a while. I want to be able to move through a section of dense brush without completely taking my rod down and putting it in a case.
 
pcray1231 wrote:

In my hands, I feel a HUGE difference between various rods and tapers, regardless of when they were designed and made. But I can't say any of them are better or worse than any others. I can only say what I personally prefer, which varies depending on the application. And there are plenty of old rods that I like. The only thing I can say about modern technology is that the "light and fast" category has added even lighter and faster options over time. i.e. one end of the spectrum has been lengthened. But for me, all rods, anywhere on that spectrum, still have their time and place. Every rod is a trade-off, and excels at something while falling short on something else.

I agree that it's pretty much a personal preference. I'm not a big fan of fast rods. I just dumped an old SAGE RPL+ I had lying around for years because I thought that was way too fast. (That rod was made like 12 years ago) For me, it was like casting with a broomstick.

Yep, just like the owner himself, I prefer "older and slower."
 
PatrickC wrote:
What I don't like BTW, it when a company talks about how they have the hardest resin in the world like that matters over a single layer of graphite. If you are so careful with your rods that it never touches anything but the air you cast through...it's fine. One scratch from a tree branch walking into that remote water....not so fine. Or God forbid you are just tired and not casting well one day and your poor casting stroke leads to a BH woolly bugger hitting the rod. I could be more careful and protect that rod like it's my child. But come on, I want to be able to set the thing down once in a while. I want to be able to move through a section of dense brush without completely taking my rod down and putting it in a case.

They really aren't as fragile as your post would make them seem.
 
PennKev wrote:
They really aren't as fragile as your post would make them seem.

The larger wt rods really are... I've broke them numerous times, always right in the middle of landing a large fish. I have not had as much an issue with the lighter weight rods.
 
PatrickC wrote:
PennKev wrote:
They really aren't as fragile as your post would make them seem.

The larger wt rods really are... I've broke them numerous times, always right in the middle of landing a large fish. I have not had as much an issue with the lighter weight rods.


That's a totally differnt stuation than what you describe in your previous post and one that really puts your fish fighting technique in question. One or two broken rods, yeah maybe you can covince us that it is the rod, but "numerous" rods while landing fish?
 
Mainly on account of never owning the latest and greatest graphite technologies, I don't have any personal experience.

That said, I've heard the same thing. And it makes sense from a materials standpoint, but is very likely highly brand/model dependent.

First, a general rule of all materials, including graphite and resins, is the stronger you make something, the less ductility/toughness it can have (i.e. it's more brittle). The definition of "high modulus" is stronger. For instance, diamond is the hardest/strongest material on earth. But it's also not tough at all. Hit it with a hammer, and the hammer wins, resulting in diamond dust!

To make matters worse, higher modulus graphite allows a rod maker to make a rod lighter without sacrificing the speed of the action. They do this by thinning the walls, and perhaps stiffening the resin. The higher stiffness allows you to have the stiffer rod with less material. But in addition to being more brittle, the thinner walls further lower the damage tolerance, i.e. a little nick has a greater effect.

That said, a maker could take it the other way too. Even if the graphite is more brittle, you could soften the resin, allowing the graphite to supply more of the stiffness. Then you could add MORE sheets of thinner graphite, even crosshatching the directions. The result would be a rod that probably would have similar action and weight as previous rods, but is more damage tolerant and nearly industructible. i.e. an improved Ugly Stick.

There are always trade-offs. I always say, picture a see-saw. You can gain one at the expense of the other, and pick your balance point. Newer, modern materials don't change the fundamental trade off. They raise the fulcrum a little.
 
OP: "when I look at the really expensive ones in the shop I can't seem to feel any difference."

fwiw, the guesses I make in a shop or in the yard about how a rod will fish on a stream haven't been that good.

No fish to spook with a heavier line in the yard. And the 15-35 ft range where I catch small stream trout looks like nothing in a yard. Mostly sidearm casting out there, etc.


 
PennKev wrote:

That's a totally differnt stuation than what you describe in your previous post and one that really puts your fish fighting technique in question. One or two broken rods, yeah maybe you can covince us that it is the rod, but "numerous" rods while landing fish?

Yes, that's probably it....I don't know how to fight fish. I'd appreciate a lesson from you any time you are willing ;-)

It's the only rod I have ever broken. I have landed thousands of steelhead, LR browns, and salmon on the fly. Never had an issue except with the Helios on steelhead and salmon. The conditions of steelhead and salmon fishing are just to rough for the Helios unless you have the thing in a boat and never walk through the woods or lay it on the bank (unsheathed). It's just a rod that has to be babied. If you have it on a boat and protect it from nicks and never hit the rod with a heavy fly on a poor cast...it will work fine.
 
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