New road stuff.

[osprey]

Was driving the other day and got stuck behind a State plow truck that was fitted with one of those new units that sprays a liquid instead of salt , sand , or cinders. Just wondered if any of you folks know what the liquid is and what effects it has that might be different as far as run off and the water are concerned?

 

[bikerfish]

I think it's liquid magnesium chloride

 

[Fishidiot]

Good question. I'd be curious to know what, if any, are the effects on run off or water quality etc.

 

[Lonewolve]

Osprey,
It's called Brine, and from my understanding its a liquid sodium/magnesium mix.It can dry on the road before a snow/ice storm hits an when the storm hits it is ready to go.They have been using it for a few years in the Lehigh Valley/Philly area.
The thing that worries me is what does this brew do to the trouts streams..or hell to any stream/brook or river?

I wish they just used Sand like they do out west,Maybe Limestone sand would work. Any how thats whats being used an it does a pretty good job if they get it down before the storm hits.

 

[tomgamber]

I thought it was calcium chloride. Might be remembering wrong but that's whats popped into my head when I read the question.



looks like both...from the pendot site:

PennDOT utilizes an anti-icing program by applying liquid magnesium chelorid, liquid calcium chloride or salt water to the road before snow starts falling. This is done to prevent precipitation from forming a strong, icy bond with the pavement. Anti-icing is done on I-95, 1-76, and I-676 in Philadelphia; on the US 202/PA 611 Bypass, PA 132, US 13, I-95, PA 413, PA 313, PA 309 in Bucks County; on US 1, US 202, US 30 and PA 100 in Chester County; on the US 1 Bypass, I-476, and I-95 in Delaware County; and on I-76, I-476, and US 422 in Montgomery County.

I did not correct their spelling... ;-)

 

[mpschramm]

There have been a few studies published over the last few years in regards to the toxicity of road salt runoff in urban and rural watersheds. From what I have read, the concentration of runoff depends greatly on the amount of impervious surface (I know, stunning). Some noted problems with these studies includes knowing how much road salt is actually applied in these areas, and knowing when to sample (snowfall runoff models can be complex, and knowing what runoff is attributed to what snow event is not always perfect).
Anyways, there aren't a lot of peer reviewed open source studies available but here is one:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/es101333u

 

[Chaz]

It is often sprayed on vehicles by cars and trucks running through before it has time to dry and thus rendered useless. When dry the dust is picked up by tires and ground into fine dust that get's in my sinuses and cause me great sinus distress.
I don't believe it does a bit of good to pretreat roads for these reasons, it gives Penn Dot reason to not plow when they should, something they've always tried to shirk responsibilty for, at least in SE PA.

 

[KeithS]

It always seemed to work to me.

 

[troutpoop]

Last year Derry Twp. in Hershey tried a beet juice mixure in their sprayers. I'm not sure exactly what was in it, possibly mixed with the other more conventional products.
I didn't hear how it turned out but I didn't hear any bitching either. It's supposed to be more environmentally friendly and it's a biproduct of another industry, not sure where from.

 

[osprey]

While i lived down east the thing that seemed to present the most difficulty during a snow storm was lack of equipment , out west here the townships , boroughs , cities etc. are forced to be well equipped. An 8" snowfall here and they don't even call school off.

 

[springer1]

Here in Delaware County today, the roads are all WHITE from the brine.

Much of the runoff isn't likely to be absorbed by the surrounding fields, because in the neighborhoods and towns it goes directly into the storm sewers and directly into the creeks.

Waterways in SEPA can be a very hostile place to try and live and raise a family.

I'm no expert, but I do wonder if the problems with our fisheries are due to the sum of the pollution; chemical, biological, etc rather than just 1 silver bullet.

There's so many stress agents that the fish are simply weakened and cannot tolerate the sum total of many causes - which individually may not be an identifiable problem.

Springton dam is simply putrid and stinks in the late Summer & Fall with the algea bloom and when it all dies off and lingers as thick scum. Ther's no way there's any oxygen transfer on the surface.

30 years ago this was absolutely not the case.

Our waters are simply toxic.

 

[melvinp]

I work on cars and trucks for a living and most of are work now is rust related,I cant say what it is doing to the water but i can tell in 10 years your nice truck or car is going to turn to dust and blow away,just like the bridges.

 

[JasonS]

springer1 wrote:


Our waters are simply toxic.

The waterways in SEPA are much cleaner now then they were 30yrs ago and it's not even debatable.

 

[franklin]

melvinp wrote:
I work on cars and trucks for a living and most of are work now is rust related,I cant say what it is doing to the water but i can tell in 10 years your nice truck or car is going to turn to dust and blow away,just like the bridges.

I generally keep a vehicle for a number of years. ten years is quite common for me. I have noticed in recent years that there is more corrosion damage than ten years ago. I think this is more related to cost cutting by manufacturers than anything else. Thinner plating and poor practices prior to plating.

Need to undercoat that vehicle when it is new. Clean the bottom well and put on a good coat. Best done in summer or at the dealer prior to any time on the road.

 

[pcray1231]

Yeah, it's cost cutting, as well as other factors taking on higher priority. But not so much in plating. Alloys.

Typically they make it only as stainless as it has to be. There are parts they are willing to let rust, and parts they are not. They've gotten more aggressive at knowing the difference and engineering every part to be sufficient to do its job in the environment it's expected to see, but just barely sufficient.

All alloy choices involve trade-offs. And corrosion resistance is only one attribute. Strength, toughness, fatigue resistance, and yes, cost. So maybe if they sacrifice a little corrosion resistance on part A, they can get a little higher strength for the same cost, and thus make the part smaller and cut weight, and thus get a fraction of a mpg in fuel economy improvement.

MPG has taken a much higher priority over time, and they're willing to sacrifice just about everything else for a slight improvement.

 

[osprey]

My last vehicle was a 95 Ford f-150 truck it's showin it's age. Last summer i bought an 08 Chevy Trail Blazer , the amount of plastic in the new one is what surprised me , but goes right along with what Pcray said.

 

[springer1]

The waterways in SEPA are much cleaner now then they were 30yrs ago and it's not even debatable

I guess you are correct.

The smallmouth are almost gone. many fish have odd black spots all over them, even those caught from drinking supply sources. In the Fall, ponds & reservoirs reek of dead algae & scum from all the phospates & other stuff. The advisories to not eat fish make up a large portion of the Commission's regulations. People get strange lesions and infections when they wade without waders. Invasive slime makes it necessary but unwise to use felt waders. Water levels fluctuate more because of increased demand. The govt lays down salt a day in advance of bad weather just in case.

I'm trying to think which of those were the case in the 1960 & 70s when people used tire chains and I only wore waders when the water got cold. But I always had to wear long pants to wade because the bluegills would peck at the hair on my legs.

Oh, and I forgot Delaware stuff like .....

http://www.nj.com/gloucester-county/index.ssf/2013/02/miles_of_trash_line_delaware_r.html

I collect trash in the winter from along streams - because in the winter the nasty stuff growing in the cans is hopefully dead - I get 3 times more junk than I did years ago.

It's much better than is was; I know it's true because the government has people employed who's job depends on them telling me so. And their bosses jobs depend on them saying that too.

 

[mike_richardson]

I work for the enemy in some cases. Look up accu-brine systems. My company had been installing them for a while. It is a brine mixture as said before. I am pretty sure you need gloves and goggle and other safety equipment just to handle the stuff so imagine what that does as it flows into our streams.

I also design the trucks that are used in marcellus shale. I have to support the fam but every time i start designing i feel bad knowing this thing could be damaging something i love. SUX!

 

[tig]

I don't know what that stuff is but if it is the same stuff they use in Garrett county Maryland, I've seen that stuff rot the spring shackles off trucks. Spring shackles are fairly thick metal.

 

[osprey]

tig..........why do i have the idea that you might be a welder? All kidding aside , almost everyone i know who makes a living either working on cars , trucks , anything metal that comes into contact with this "New" road mix , that is sprayed on as a liquid before an approaching snowstorm , they all say that corrosion has gotten worse since they started using it.