Opportunity to learn about large wood in trout streams at Keystone Coldwater Conference

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lycoflyfisher

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Check out the link above for an opportunity to sit in on a workshop session to learn all about large wood addition, chop and drop or whatever term you want to use to describe the restoration method of adding large wood to trout streams. For all of the past discussion and debate on this forum about this restoration approach, I thought this may be a good opportunity for folks to learn more.
 
Thanks for the heads-up on this important event. I copied and pasted the info in the "Events" forum to inform/remind board members of the event.
 
There are a number of presentations related to large wood additions and fish population monitoring that will be during the Saturday Session as well. The Friday workshop is a great opportunity to hear about the approach and understand the what, how and why of large wood addition in trout streams.
 
We do have a lot of “large, woody debris” fans around here.
I for one am not a fan.

Why are we gonna hurt our trout streams in the future to have a little fun now?

Let things be natural! First we have stocked trout. Now we have stocked logs. And stocked logs can only come from killing off sub-legal immature logs. I can see it maybe in streams without trees. But I do not want to see them stocking logs over a naturally reproducing population of logs.
 
I for one am not a fan.

Why are we gonna hurt our trout streams in the future to have a little fun now?

Let things be natural! First we have stocked trout. Now we have stocked logs. And stocked logs can only come from killing off sub-legal immature logs. I can see it maybe in streams without trees. But I do not want to see them stocking logs over a naturally reproducing population of logs.


Sounds like you should attend the meeting and learn why 🤔
 
I for one am not a fan.

Why are we gonna hurt our trout streams in the future to have a little fun now?

Let things be natural! First we have stocked trout. Now we have stocked logs. And stocked logs can only come from killing off sub-legal immature logs. I can see it maybe in streams without trees. But I do not want to see them stocking logs over a naturally reproducing population of logs.
Just curious, how might this practice hurt trout streams in the future? There are streams that just might benefit from trees being placed strategically to create habitat/insect life. These same trees don't have to come from "killing off" any trees at all, simply place deadfalls from the area, or bring them in. The only potential issue with it is how much disruption takes place in the process?
 
Well I was just joking. Cause you know stocked analogies are fun.

I should have been more clear. Only talking about what I have seen. I’ve never seen any large woody debris projects be negative other than the new kind, dropping trees in creeks in the middle of the mountains that are already Class A. The kind where they drop a tree every 10 or 15 feet. For miles…..The current hot new trend of woody debris practice in Pa. In all seriousness how are we gonna get 300 year old shade trees back to the creek banks, if we cut them all down all the bank trees at 50 years old? And many of the trees that are cut for these projects are hemlocks and alive. I repeat Hemlock and alive. So hemlock Wolly Adelgid is a major trout threat? But now we have stream improvement programs that do the exact same thing? To improve the stream? Kill the mature shade hemlocks? @lycoflyfisher Sounds like you should attend the streams where this has been implemented and learn why this destroys the future of the stream. They are a nightmare. It’s like the logging days all over again. Less mature trees in the future. Less shade in the future. And a nearly unfishable stream for 20 years, full of Heron fishing docks. Just to hopefully create an artificially high biomass of trout temporarily? That will plunge wild populations in the long run. How is stocking log’s different than stocking trout? If it’s bad for the environment and bad for the fishery in the long run. How can any short term impact justify it? And why on 5 Mile long Class A brook trout streams are we doing this for multiple miles of water? On multiple streams? In the same county? Just a few miles apart?

But yeah it’s was just a joke. Cause they are stocking logs. Sorry, didn’t mean to imply all woody debris projects are bad. Or that this convention won’t be interesting and educational.
 
Again. It sounds like you should attend the meeting to hear the talks. There's a lot more going on than just "artificially increasing trout biomass".

If you are referring to a Clinton Co trib to kettle, I have been there and am not sure why you would take issue if we are talking about the same stream. There are some direct tribs to the river a short distance away that got nailed in a windstorm a few back if you want to see a stream section that is virtually unfishable.

I agree, that haphazard dropping of streams isn't what this approach intends. Likewise cutting of trees that span 4ft above the channel without touching the water have no benefit to the stream either.

Improving floodplain connectivity, improving groundwater recharge and encouraging complex channel forms are just a few of the watershed benefits that are targeted.

I think you would learn a lot from attending the conference.
 
If you don’t attend, you can still learn a lot by using a search engine to enter “woody debris in streams.” I just checked for you. You’ll find lots of info and research results, plus it's free.
 
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I should have been more clear. Only talking about what I have seen. I’ve never seen any large woody debris projects be negative other than the new kind, dropping trees in creeks in the middle of the mountains that are already Class A. The kind where they drop a tree every 10 or 15 feet. For miles…..The current hot new trend of woody debris practice in Pa. In all seriousness how are we gonna get 300 year old shade trees back to the creek banks, if we cut them all down all the bank trees at 50 years old? And many of the trees that are cut for these projects are hemlocks and alive. I repeat Hemlock and alive. So hemlock Wolly Adelgid is a major trout threat? But now we have stream improvement programs that do the exact same thing? To improve the stream? Kill the mature shade hemlocks? @lycoflyfisher Sounds like you should attend the streams where this has been implemented and learn why this destroys the future of the stream. They are a nightmare. It’s like the logging days all over again. Less mature trees in the future. Less shade in the future. And a nearly unfishable stream for 20 years, full of Heron fishing docks. Just to hopefully create an artificially high biomass of trout temporarily? That will plunge wild populations in the long run. How is stocking log’s different than stocking trout? If it’s bad for the environment and bad for the fishery in the long run. How can any short term impact justify it? And why on 5 Mile long Class A brook trout streams are we doing this for multiple miles of water? On multiple streams? In the same county? Just a few miles apart?
What stream stretches have you seen where they call cut down all the trees along the bank, leaving no shade? Let us know so we can go there and take a look. And if you have photos of this, please post them.

I've seen a few of these projects, and at the ones I saw, they only dropped a small percentage of the trees, leaving most of the shade canopy trees still there. Also, in many cases they are felling trees well back from the stream, not on the stream bank.

Foresters often thin trees because where trees are densely stocked. Thinning promotes growth of the remaining trees.

Regarding the hemlocks, some of them may have still been alive, but they saw that the wooly adelgids were already hitting the hemlocks and they were on their way out.

Regarding "leaving stream natural", you can only leave something natural if it is in a natural condition. In most cases in PA, streams with low levels of large woody debris are not natural. It's a man-made condition. You can just wait, but in most cases, it would be a long time before there would be much LWD.
 
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Does anyone have a list of large woody debris addition projects in PA?
 
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