Camp Run (Westmoreland Co.)

[JGR]

Why do you think so?

Rainbows could have been introduced there by others. That has happened in numerous locations in PA.

Sorry, I don't agree.

 

[troutbert]

Sorry, I don't agree.

No need to apologize for having an opinion.

 

[JGR]

I been wrong before, but I caught them in a brook trout stream stocked with PFBC rainbows that hold over.

An earlier post on Laurel Highlands wild rainbows:

Wild Trout Trifecta

One additional thought to my post from last evening. This stream does not have any barrier (natural or man-made) that fish cannot get past. That said there was a pretty clear transition from Bows to Brookies as we went upstream. Of the first 10 fish we caught, 7 were Bows, 2 were Brookies...

www.paflyfish.com

 

[Mike]

That’s why I asked if the populations are fall or spring spawners. PFBC RT are fall spawners. Decades ago (1940’s ) I have been told that feds stocked spring spawners in Pa.

 

[JGR]

That’s why I asked if the populations are fall or spring spawners. PFBC RT are fall spawners. Decades ago (1940’s ) I have been told that feds stocked spring spawners in Pa.

I know. The Laughlintown area rainbows are late winter spawners and where planted by the Rolling Rock Club in the early 1900s.

The upper Indian Creek & Laurel Hill Creek rainbows are far more recent developments.

There are a surprising number of streams here that have them. Many are posted though including Pike Run that the private hatchery is located on.

 

[silverfox]

One thing is for sure; they didn't migrate there from Alaska.

 

[Prospector]

So are we down to, “Camp Run rainbow fingerlings…..”

1) could have migrated up from fingerling stockings in the Yough

2) could have escaped or been stocked by an upstream Co-op nursery (Rolling Rock club?)

3) Camp Run is one of a small number of PA streams that maintains the strict temperature profile required for rainbow trout eggs to hatch. If this is true, any stocked pair of rainbow trout could have migrated up the trib and could be the parents. Note: everyone knows rainbows are the most commonly stocked trout but the water temp profile is why there are very few wild rainbow hatched in the state.

Is that it? Are there other scenarios?

 

[JGR]

The Mill Run Reservoir dam near Rt 381 prevents migration from the Youghiogheny to the upper Indian Creek watershed.

The top release dam was constructed in 1905. The section below holds smallmouth and I think it's too warm for trout:




There's a well know unstocked tributary with reproducing rainbows below the dam, but I believe they've been there far longer. It's the stream mentioned earlier by Albatross.

 

[turkey]

It's been awhile since I've looked at the class A list but my recollection is that most, if not all, of the wild rainbow pops are in SWPA. What is unique about this area that supports these populations?

Years ago I tried my luck on a class A RT stream in this area and caught only brook trout. Eventually, a year or 2 later I did connect with a wild rainbow but I was initially surprised.

Troubling to see bows in Camp Rn now.

 

[Prospector]

It's been awhile since I've looked at the class A list but my recollection is that most, if not all, of the wild rainbow pops are in SWPA. What is unique about this area that supports these populations?

Years ago I tried my luck on a class A RT stream in this area and caught only brook trout. Eventually, a year or 2 later I did connect with a wild rainbow but I was initially surprised.

Troubling to see bows in Camp Rn now.

There are 7 streams in SWPA on the list and 4 others in the rest of the state. The wild rainbow streams I’ve been to in PA aren’t dominated by rainbows. All 3 trout tend to coexist with brookies still in control of the colder water upstream.

 

[troutbert]

It's been awhile since I've looked at the class A list but my recollection is that most, if not all, of the wild rainbow pops are in SWPA. What is unique about this area that supports these populations?

The reason there are wild rainbows there has nothing with the streams being "unique." There are thousands of miles of freestone streams in PA and elsewhere in the eastern US that are very similar.

The reason there are few wild rainbow populations in PA is that the PFBC strain of rainbows is a highly domesticated hatchery strain that is not viable in the wild. This strain is stocked by the PFBC and the coop hatcheries get their rainbow fingerlings from the PFBC. These rainbows have been stocked by the millions for about a century in nearly every watershed in PA, including thousands of miles of streams that support wild populations of brook trout and/or brown trout. And they just don't "take."

The populations of wild rainbows in PA came from stocking by other parties of strains of rainbow trout that are viable in the wild. In some streams in western PA the rainbows came from federal hatcheries. The rainbows in the Delaware River came from NY state hatcheries.

Various private parties have stocked wild strain rainbows that established populations, both in the past, and more recently. Some of these were clubs, some were pay-to-play businesses. Some were fishermen who just wanted a rainbow population in their local stream.

In recent years wild rainbow populations have become established in Spring Creek and Elk Creek (Penns Cr drainage). The PFBC has stocked rainbows in both watersheds in vast numbers for about a century, and the Spring Creek drainage has 3 hatcheries, which used to have large numbers of escapees. But rainbows never established.

But recently rainbows have become established. This was from private party stocking. People buy trout from hatcheries and they are using strains that are different than the PFBC strain.

 

[JGR]

...Various private parties have stocked wild strain rainbows that established populations, both in the past, and more recently. Some of these were clubs, some were pay-to-play businesses. Some were fishermen who just wanted a rainbow population in their local stream.

In recent years wild rainbow populations have become established in Spring Creek and Elk Creek (Penns Cr drainage). The PFBC has stocked rainbows in both watersheds in vast numbers for about a century, and the Spring Creek drainage has 3 hatcheries, which used to have large numbers of escapees. But rainbows never established.

But recently rainbows have become established. This was from private party stocking. People buy trout from hatcheries and they are using strains that are different than the PFBC strain.

I believe what you're saying is mostly, but not entirely correct.

Wild rainbows appear in the Laurel Hill Creek tributary I mentioned above after the PFBC discontinues stocking it with brook and brown trout in favor of hatchery rainbows. Also, while possible, why would an individual stock private hatchery rainbows over those stocked by the state?

It's seems like too much of a coincidence.

 

[mgmunson]

I’m very new to the sport and live between camp run and pike run. Since October I’ve only caught (very few, admittedly) brookies in each stream. This one was on private property in pike run just last month. Pink egg/worm combo on a 10’6” tenkara

 

[Prospector]

I’m very new to the sport and live between camp run and pike run. Since October I’ve only caught (very few, admittedly) brookies in each stream. This one was on private property in pike run just last month. Pink egg/worm combo on a 10’6” tenkara View attachment 1641229483

What you experienced in those 2 streams (catching more brookies than rainbows) is what I have experienced in other similar streams. You should eventually catch a rainbow and I’d guess it will roughly come around the midpoint area of that stream. A little color in the water tends to increase chances.

 

[Mike]

I believe what you're saying is mostly, but not entirely correct.

Wild rainbows appear in the Laurel Hill Creek tributary I mentioned above after the PFBC discontinues stocking it with brook and brown trout in favor of hatchery rainbows. Also, while possible, why would an individual stock private hatchery rainbows over those stocked by the state?

It's seems like too much of a coincidence.

Private individuals and clubs stock private hatchery fish or cooperative nursery fish in streams that the PFBC already stocks. In part, I assume the philosophy is “more are better.” In one case the reason was because the anglers thought a particular strain was better and they were willing to pay to get that strain, which goes to Troutbert’s comment.

When PFBC RT spawn in freestoners and some of the young actually hatch out and survive their first year and winter, they almost always disappear by their second year. When I say usually, I say this from experience, but not because I have ever seen a 3rd growing season RT in a freestoner. I think I saw them once or twice in a particular tail-race in a limestone influenced stream, but the years of reproduction were short-lived there and limited to a very short stretch of a 2 mile section. Their greatest chance of PFBC reproductive success is in limestoners and as Troutbert suggested there has been plenty of opportunity to do so, but even limestone populations occur in relatively few limestone streams in Pa.

 

[JGR]

Thanks Mike, I was hoping you would post.