Camp Run (Westmoreland Co.)

[Fish Sticks]

If you really want to make sure a stream stays brookies that has invasive browns or rainbows below that can freely access, yea your probably going to have to use a barrier.

However, research I have posted before shows that high ratio of native trout to invasive ones can help offer biotic resistance to invasion. There is research done in NY using modeling that shows sampled streams in the study’s lack of native brook trout could not be explained by wild invasive trout alone and that repeat stocking of invasive species exponentially increased the rate of extirpation. Brook trout and brown trout do not co-exist and brown trout out compete brook trout fish to fish in most cases but when you skew the ratio there is some evidence they may be able to hold their ground in some cases. We don’t have an exact understanding about what situations those are more likely in yet from what I have come across.

So enter PFBC stocking right below the stream in question and many other brook trout. Its likely that “cats out of the bag,” in reference to browns coming here on a ship a long long time ago and reproducing, does not fully explain why all these class A brook trout streams full of browns or in transition. The repeated stockings with extremely high densities invasive brown trout are likely more than the streams could likely ever produce at that size to compete with wild native brook trout in many cases. These idiots are refusing to even discuss stopping stocking where AMD remediation is happening and brook trout are upstream

 

[tomgamber]

Any chance some of the Rolling Rock Club stock gets up in there.

 

[silverfox]

I remember fishing camp run about 20ish some years ago when I lived in Greensburg. I fished a bunch of those streams on the west side of the laurel ridge back then. If I recall correctly, all I ever caught there were brook trout. I remember catching a lot of stocked brook trout in Linn Run back then.

The thing that worries me the most about that area, but apparently well outside that area too, are the "patriot trout" from Laurel Hill Trout Farm. I've seen several photos of what appear to be wild (3-6in) brook trout that have the distinctive "squiggly line" magenta markings like the "patriot trout". That implies that there's some natural reproduction of those fish going on. Those fish appear to be more fecund than the state's stocked brook trout source stock.

Incidentally, I just saw another photo of one recently that was supposedly caught in a Class A, and I suspect it was in central PA. It's a good example of why we need a private stocking AUTHORIZATION, (not just a notice), and ironically, it's the farm that was loudest in opposition to the private stocking reform that is likely responsible for one of the most dangerous sources of private stock. How they're allowed to stock those brook trout in brook trout streams is mind-boggling.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I remember fishing camp run about 20ish some years ago when I lived in Greensburg. I fished a bunch of those streams on the west side of the laurel ridge back then. If I recall correctly, all I ever caught there were brook trout. I remember catching a lot of stocked brook trout in Linn Run back then.

The thing that worries me the most about that area, but apparently well outside that area too, are the "patriot trout" from Laurel Hill Trout Farm. I've seen several photos of what appear to be wild (3-6in) brook trout that have the distinctive "squiggly line" magenta markings like the "patriot trout". That implies that there's some natural reproduction of those fish going on. Those fish appear to be more fecund than the state's stocked brook trout source stock.

Incidentally, I just saw another photo of one recently that was supposedly caught in a Class A, and I suspect it was in central PA. It's a good example of why we need a private stocking AUTHORIZATION, (not just a notice), and ironically, it's the farm that was loudest in opposition to the private stocking reform that is likely responsible for one of the most dangerous sources of private stock. How they're allowed to stock those brook trout in brook trout streams is mind-boggling.

I can’t find the picture you sent me of the wild cross with the “ double halo” or “squiggly line” but yea looks uncanny and just like their “patriot strain”. Ironic thing is the brother and sister who own it crying to PFBC about how it would ruin them already have to deal with a stocking authorization in VA.

 

[Arminacast]

I remember fishing camp run about 20ish some years ago when I lived in Greensburg. I fished a bunch of those streams on the west side of the laurel ridge back then. If I recall correctly, all I ever caught there were brook trout. I remember catching a lot of stocked brook trout in Linn Run back then.

The thing that worries me the most about that area, but apparently well outside that area too, are the "patriot trout" from Laurel Hill Trout Farm. I've seen several photos of what appear to be wild (3-6in) brook trout that have the distinctive "squiggly line" magenta markings like the "patriot trout". That implies that there's some natural reproduction of those fish going on. Those fish appear to be more fecund than the state's stocked brook trout source stock.

Incidentally, I just saw another photo of one recently that was supposedly caught in a Class A, and I suspect it was in central PA. It's a good example of why we need a private stocking AUTHORIZATION, (not just a notice), and ironically, it's the farm that was loudest in opposition to the private stocking reform that is likely responsible for one of the most dangerous sources of private stock. How they're allowed to stock those brook trout in brook trout streams is mind-boggling.

I caught this Brook trout (Patriot Trout) in Indian Creek, not far from where camp run enters it. That was in May of 2021. I have noticed that two tributaries to Indian Creek seem to have an increased population of wild brown trout and one now has a substantial population of wild rainbows also.

 

[Fish Sticks]

I caught this Brook trout (Patriot Trout) in Indian Creek, not far from where camp run enters it. That was in May of 2021. I have noticed that two tributaries to Indian Creek seem to have an increased population of wild brown trout and one now has a substantial population of wild rainbows also.

It’s ironic laurel hill trout farms branded them “ patriot trout” as its my understanding that phenotype is characteristic of nipigon fish(canada). I am not big on using phenotype to identify things but its just a very uncanny feature and unfortunately likely genetic sabotage to wild populations as well.

 

[skybay]

The : "The Wild Brookie Trout" is the small brookie trout.

(regardless the local experts: 3wt7X and foxfire)
The non brookies in such small tiny W PA creeks are very accidental and such things like invasive wild brown apperance does not happen untill you put them there!

 

[jifigz]

The : "The Wild Brookie Trout" is the small brookie trout.

(regardless the local experts: 3wt7X and foxfire)
The non brookies in such small tiny W PA creeks are very accidental and such things like invasive wild brown apperance does not happen untill you put them there!

I have no idea what this post means regarding the comment about the wild brookie trout being the small brookie trout again when the picture is a rainbow......

 

[troutbert]

It’s ironic laurel hill trout farms branded them “ patriot trout” as its my understanding that phenotype is characteristic of nipigon fish(canada). I am not big on using phenotype to identify things but its just a very uncanny feature and unfortunately likely genetic sabotage to wild populations as well.

Are the wild rainbow trout in this watershed from this same hatchery? It's extremely unlikely that the wild rainbows came from PFBC stockings.

 

[Steeltrap]

Oh....come on....everyone knows a brownie is brown....and a brookie is.....not brown.

 

[silverfox]

I caught this Brook trout (Patriot Trout) in Indian Creek, not far from where camp run enters it. That was in May of 2021. I have noticed that two tributaries to Indian Creek seem to have an increased population of wild brown trout and one now has a substantial population of wild rainbows also.

What happens when you put a trout hatchery on a stream that supports the natural reproduction of trout? Brook trout, no less. Escapees = new populations of different trout species. In a brook trout stream. Not to mention the effluent pollution. Great use of natural resources. Seems like brook trout streams get the short end of the stick in order to "enhance" other trout "resources" pretty consistently in this state unless they're Class A. Anything less is fair game for exploitation.

 

[Mike]

Are the RT described in the streams above fall or spring spawners? If you know, please respond. No guesses or suppositions please.

 

[salmonoid]

I have no idea what this post means regarding the comment about the wild brookie trout being the small brookie trout again when the picture is a rainbow......

Sometimes we're all playing checkers while others are playing 4D chess. I think that may be the case here 🙃

 

[Arminacast]

Are the RT described in the streams above fall or spring spawners? If you know, please respond. No guesses or suppositions please.

I don't know. I do know that I tend to catch more wild rainbows and wild brown trout in the month of September, they are both in the 4 to 5 inch range at that time. Don't know if that helps.

 

[JGR]

Are the wild rainbow trout in this watershed from this same hatchery? It's extremely unlikely that the wild rainbows came from PFBC stockings.

They could be.

The hatchery is on Pike Run, tributary of Roaring Run, where an acquaintance caught wild rainbow trout. About 10 years ago, the Pittsburgh Tribune Review mentioned what appeared to be wild rainbows being caught in Roaring Run near its confluence with Indian Creek.

However, Fish and Boat Commission stockings could easily be the source. I caught these in a Laurel Hill Creek tributary last year, which could only be the offspring of rainbows stocked by the state:

 

[Arminacast]

I don't know. I do know that I tend to catch more wild rainbows and wild brown trout in the month of September, they are both in the 4 to 5 inch range at that time. Don't know if that helps.

A couple of pics. These fish were caught on the same day Sept. 9 2022

 

[troutbert]

They could be.

The hatchery is on Pike Run, tributary of Roaring Run, where an acquaintance caught wild rainbow trout. About 10 years ago, the Pittsburgh Tribune Review mentioned what appeared to be wild rainbows being caught in Roaring Run near its confluence with Indian Creek.

However, Fish and Boat Commission stockings could easily be the source. I caught these in a Laurel Hill Creek tributary last year, which could only be the offspring of rainbows stocked by the state:

A couple of pics. These fish were caught on the same day Sept. 9 2022

They could be.

The hatchery is on Pike Run, tributary of Roaring Run, where an acquaintance caught wild rainbow trout. About 10 years ago, the Pittsburgh Tribune Review mentioned what appeared to be wild rainbows being caught in Roaring Run near its confluence with Indian Creek.

However, Fish and Boat Commission stockings could easily be the source. I caught these in a Laurel Hill Creek tributary last year, which could only be the offspring of rainbows stocked by the state:

Why do you think these are from PFBC stockings?

I think that's very unlikely. The PFBC over the years has stocked essentially everything with rainbow trout. Yet few wild rainbow trout populations exist in PA. If their rainbow strain was viable in the wild, they would be very widespread.

The logical explanation is that the rainbow trout populations that exist in PA were from other sources stocking different strains of rainbow trout than what the PFBC uses.

 

[tomgamber]

Are the wild rainbow trout in this watershed from this same hatchery? It's extremely unlikely that the wild rainbows

PFBC stocked trout from N.C. around here a few years back. Feisty fish. Was still stocked by PFBC. They stock a crap ton of fingerlings in the Yough. I don’t subscribe to the PFBC fish font reproduce theory. It happens. The better water quality, the more likely. Less common because rainbows get stocked on s lot of marginal waters.

 

[JGR]

Why do you think these are from PFBC stockings?

I think that's very unlikely. The PFBC over the years has stocked essentially everything with rainbow trout. Yet few wild rainbow trout populations exist in PA. If their rainbow strain was viable in the wild, they would be very widespread.

The logical explanation is that the rainbow trout populations that exist in PA were from other sources stocking different strains of rainbow trout than what the PFBC uses.

Successful rainbow trout spawning in the Indian Creek watershed above the reservoir could be the result of escapes from the hatchery on Pike Run, from PFBC stockings or both.

Wild rainbows in the Laurel Hill Creek drainage on the east side of the mountain could only result from PFBC fish reproducing.

 

[troutbert]

Wild rainbows in the Laurel Hill Creek drainage on the east side of the mountain could only result from PFBC fish reproducing.

Why do you think so?

Rainbows could have been introduced there by others. That has happened in numerous locations in PA.