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Re: Tulpehocken, Berks County, 06/12/2010

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From Bozeman
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NedZeppelin wrote:
With all of the issues about water depth and temperatures, what about the obvious solution of increasing the water flow from the dam?

(Now, I say that knowing there is an answer for this, but it drives me a little nuts every year. . . )


At this point, that would amount to pumping more 73 degree water. Also, the dam was made for a few reasons, none of which were to create a fishery. It's a nice perk, but as you can see from the above, it was just a bonus. I don't really expect the corps to marginalize the effect of other, originally intended uses.

The cold water reserves in blue marsh just aren't enough to maintain a cold fishery year 'round... but I could be wrong. I don't think there's an issue with heavy releases exhausting the cold water supply earlier in the year, but I'd be curious to hear from the tailwater guys about that. I know they open 'er up now and then, but it's usually due to issues like flood control and salinity of the delaware bay (another intended use of the dam).

The lake would have to be made deeper, and I don't see that happening.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 9:28


Re: Tulpehocken, Berks County, 06/12/2010

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From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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With all of the issues about water depth and temperatures, what about the obvious solution of increasing the water flow from the dam?


It's not about the amount of water, its about the amount of COLD water! High and warm does you no good either. My understanding (and it could be wrong since I've never heard it from the Army Corps guys) is that the dam is capable of taking cold water from deep and warm water from the top and mixing it how they see fit. Unfortunately, the deep, cold pocket in the lake is not all that big, so each year you only have so much of that cold water available. So if you shoot out cold water at a high rate, you run out of cold water earlier in the summer, and you're left with warm water temps in the late summer and trout have very little chance to hold over. So, instead, they ration the cold water. They pull it all from the top until it gets too warm, and then add cold water a little at a time to keep the water temperature just under lethal. Hopefully, in a cool year, you'll get through the summer.

But that deep water pocket is filling in and getting a bit smaller every year, and thats the base of the issue that the Tully faces. It gets harder and harder to supply enough cold water to last the summer. You could dredge it, but that carries no advantage for anyone but fishermen, so it'd have to be fishermen funded. The other option is to give up on the year-round fishery, which seems to be the direction we're headed. It can still be a fine put and take fishery in the spring, and heck, its not a bad warmwater fishery either.

As for holding water, yeah, there's a lot of "dead" or almost dead stretches. Like I said, that doesn't mean you can't go through there at certain times and pick up a fish or two. Most of the better holding areas are well known, though they're not all right at access points. Since the adult stockings started, I've noticed that the fish have been more concentrated at access points than before.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 9:46


Re: Tulpehocken, Berks County, 06/12/2010

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Stream Etiquette. People fishing too close to each other. Someone moved in on me recently and caught my line. I let him know how unhappy I was about that.

I agree about water temp vs. flow to a point. Moving water means more oxygen, right? I'd rather fish a high, fast moving 72 degree stream than a low, still stream.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 10:58


Re: Tulpehocken, Berks County, 06/12/2010

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From Bozeman
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Quote:

outsider wrote:
Stream Etiquette. People fishing too close to each other. Someone moved in on me recently and caught my line. I let him know how unhappy I was about that.

I agree about water temp vs. flow to a point. Moving water means more oxygen, right? I'd rather fish a high, fast moving 72 degree stream than a low, still stream.


The higher water would mean less effect from the cooling tribs, though... right?

Then again, if it's moving faster, the sun might warm it less.

I'm not sure how that dynamic would work, but I'm skeptical that any benefit would come from increasing flows.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 11:05


Re: Tulpehocken, Berks County, 06/12/2010

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"When you talk about stream etiquette what do you mean? Any examples? Anyone is welcomed to chime in. I actually had some guy tell me that he was starting to feel rain drops on his head basically implying that I was wading too heavily. I was walking along the backside nowhere that was even close to where people were fishing and I definitely was not wading too heavily. The guy was just being a jerk and it was pretty pathetic considering he was fishing the water works stretch one of the most pressured stretches of stream where people like to get in and out of the water. I guess the guy expected to me to climb up one of the cliffs and not take the stairs? I certainly am not going to take the so called trail through the woods either. I did that once at the Tully and totally destroyed a pair of waders with the briar bushes being so numerous. Sorry, just had to vent a little bit."

Wading behind someone in the stream at the Tully isn't a problem, sometimes you have to. I just let them know I'm going to pass behind them. Spook the fish? You can stand on their back's there and they won't be spooked.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 11:45


Re: Tulpehocken, Berks County, 06/12/2010

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Greenman:
Quote:
Maybe it's just me, but when you look past many of the tully's downfalls, it has a certain charm about it. And even though you're fishing for stocked fish, it is still very enjoyable.


Absolutely. And I would like to thank Outsider, Mike K and the crew for having the foresight to provide the basis for the fishery we have today. The fishery itself certainly has it's problems and there is a fair share of grumpy bastards on that stream however even if we look at it as a put and take fishery alone, it is a pretty darn good one. Like Jay said, the holdovers may just be a bonus.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 13:01


Re: Tulpehocken, Berks County, 06/12/2010

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High water is much better for trout than low water at the same temp. I'm no expert, but I'd say more water = more oxygen = more oxygen moving through the fishes gills in the same amount of time.

My guess is that tribs won't have much effect in low water since it'll warm up quicker.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 14:19


Re: Tulpehocken, Berks County, 06/12/2010

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High water does mean more oxygen. But cold water also means more oxygen. And the effect of temperature outweighs that of speed.

If you could increase flow rates without increasing the temperature, then yeah, it'd help. But I'm not sure thats the case. You can only put out so much cold water, and the rest is being mixed with warm water. Raising the flow rate means raising the % of warm water, or else running out of cold water quicker.

Besides, long term, you can't increase flow rates. Water coming into the lake = water going out. You could even it out more. Just keep the pool higher after high water periods, and let it go during low water. Of course, that decreases the flood control capability of the dam.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 14:27


Re: Tulpehocken, Berks County, 06/12/2010

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This thread is now locked.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 14:45


Re: Tulpehocken, Berks County, 06/12/2010

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The way I figure it is more turbulent and faster water at the same temp will have the same, if not more oxygen. Because that water would be moving at a higher velocity, more oxygen would pass through a trout's gills in the same period of time. I'm guessing a trout with more oxygen would fare better in warm water with less oxygen.

But yeah, there is only so much cool water to go around.

Now this thread is locked;)

Posted on: 2010/6/23 14:52


Re: Tulpehocken, Berks County, 06/12/2010

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From Bozeman
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I don't think the problem with warm water is oxygen, though. I'm pretty sure it's metabolic. Remember, they're cold blooded.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 15:04


Re: Tulpehocken, Berks County, 06/12/2010

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Oxygen definately isn't the problem, it IS the temperature. At the same time I'm inclined to believe a trout would do better in turbulent 75degree water than stagnant 75degree water.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 15:24


Re: Tulpehocken, Berks County, 06/12/2010

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Given the lack of habitat in the tully, I'm not so sure about that. On most streams, I'd agree. There just aren't many places for them to get out of the current there.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 15:47


Re: Tulpehocken, Berks County, 06/12/2010

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Ya, without the habitat/holding water the increased flows would likely result in more energy expenditure just to stay static thus reducing efficiency of the trouts body.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 16:13


Re: Tulpehocken, Berks County, 06/12/2010

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2007/2/4 9:29
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fished 6/24. Nice Spinner fall. They inspected the fly pretty well today. Bigger fish caught on sunken spinners. Almost every other cast caught fish.

Posted on: 2010/6/24 21:23



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