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Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10

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2009/6/11 1:27
From York, PA
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I fished the special regs section of Muddy Creek Tuesday and today, Wed.
I caught a few browns on buggers and Copper Johns, and one on top on a Yellow Stimulator 14.
Lots of trout in the stream, because it was stocked Tuesday, but it keeps getting wider and shallower every year. The last couple floods put so much gravel in the main trenches that this creek has changed for the bad!!
At the parking area the big pool is only 2' deep now. Years ago it was 4' deep with nice current and rocks for the trout to hide.
Upstream by the big rock is the only somewhat deep pool.
I talked to several other fly guys and they all said that this creek is nothing like it used to be. Some caught a few fish...... but nothing like it was before.
This creek might be saved if the banks were filled with rocks and the center dug deeper and the flow went through only 25' of creek instead of 50' that we have now.
Probably too expensive to do, and with this new wacky weather it would just get washed away anyhow.
Now the trout just sit there in the shallow water to be picked off by herons and hawks.
I caught some but it broke my heart. My how the streams are changin'


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Posted on: 2010/10/14 2:36

Edited by Maurice on 2010/10/14 19:26:12
Edited by Maurice on 2010/10/14 19:27:18
Edited by Maurice on 2010/10/14 19:27:47
Edited by Maurice on 2010/10/14 19:28:13


Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10

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So, in your opinion, has the stream's habitat (fish holding capacity) deteriorated to the point that the idea of C&R does not make sense? Would it be better to look for an alternative stream in the general geographical area, such as a trib or one of the Muddy Ck branches, to manage in this way (one that has better physical habitat, access, cooler summer temps) and return the present C&R stretch to a general stocked trout water or to no stocking at all?

Posted on: 2010/10/14 11:33


Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10

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In my oppinion, Wooley bugger only fishes up to "Big Rock" judging from his previous posts and pictures from past years.

1 wt ? I mean 1wt. How is that 1wt by the way? Just got me a 2wt this year and I love it. TfO 7'3" 2 wt.

Because the pool he refers to is several yards downstream from the special regs. area. That's right in almost all of the pictures I've seen he is below the regs. area in the hole by the bridge.

Muddy Creek is a great stream and I catch mixed wild and stocked browns in the main branch, as well as some nice looking stocked rainbows. Or at least they were nice looking.

Mike,

I doubt the guy even bothers with the upper 1.5 miles of the fly section. The hemlocks area at the bottom and the sucker hole by the bridge is where 1 wt fishes I'm certain. IMHO this section holds the least fish. All of the better holding water is in the Regs. section further upstream. The hemlocks area does have some nice holding water thanks to some stream improvements, log stabilizers, courtesy of the Muddy Creek TU. Thanks Maurice. Care to join in on the discussion?

The bridge hole isn't even in the regs section it is just downstream. I know this, because I sat on a rock behind some pine trees with the WCO just before trout season while he glassed a jeep parked across the stream waiting to see if they got out and fished there where a bunch of stocked trout were rising. And because of the fact that there is a big wire going across the stream there showing where the FFO ends.

Posted on: 2010/10/14 11:50
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Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10

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Here is a post from 2008 where Wooleybugger (1wt obviously) had a decent day at the very very bottom of the regs and just below it however the pictures were from photo bucket and have been removed.
http://www.paflyfish.com/modules/newb ... t_id=50553#forumpost50553

I'm sure he's explored a little more of the stream since then, but hey, you what they say about favorite holes. You just keep going back to them.

Anyway, yes that hole is a little washed out, but honestly it is the only spot in two miles of stream that has any silt like that. And it is just one small hole with a muddy bank on one side.

Posted on: 2010/10/14 12:19
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Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10

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2006/9/9 8:53
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Muddy Creek is very deceiving. It may look like some areas are very shallow/not good habitat but go wade into them and you'll find it just a bit more than what it looks like. There are some pretty big slab rocks in there too. Better access you say? What's not to like--the two miles of that section is all open. I see more gravel down by the hemlocks then silt--it actually looks nice and clean. 1WT (WB) has a thing about this creek for some time and I get the feeling that he's looking for something different in a trout stream. I wouldn't put any stock in what he has to say about Muddy Creek. But at least he's taking better pictures by not hanging the trout by their lips.

I see nothing wrong with this area as a C&R. It's all open water (not posted), MCTU put in a nice parking area at the lower end and put some deflectors at the Hemlocks. There are some cool water tribs and spring seeps along the way. Fish it enough and you just might get some pleasant surprizes in addition to the great scenery. And by the way--I helped to stock that area the other day and met three very fine gentlemen from the Lancaster area (who also came to help) who have been fishing Muddy Creek for 20 plus years and just love it-said it's better then what their neck of the woods has to offer.

Posted on: 2010/10/14 13:13


Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10

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From lancaster county
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I would be lying if I told you Ive fished Muddy very much.

I have however fished all its tribs. What I can tell you is the fish use the tribs during the summer for thermal refuge and probably stay to spawn in the fall. Then they leave and come back to Muddy over the end of fall/winter/spring to forage.

My guess is you didnt see many wild fish due to this fact.

Posted on: 2010/10/14 13:22
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Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10

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From York County
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What Fritz and Sal say is true.

Last summer in early September I decided to fish a small cascading tributary to Muddy Creek with a bunch of little 2 foot high waterfalls. I caught a few wild browns making my way up the stream. Then I got to this kiddie pool sized hole and to my surprise hooked a 14" stocked brown up in this trib above all these little cascading falls.

Here are the pics of a stocked trout, top and a wild trout from the same tributary of Muddy Creek.

Attach file:



jpg  Stocked brown Muddy tributary.JPG (643.46 KB)
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jpg  Wild brown Muddy tributary.JPG (711.60 KB)
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jpg  1552.JPG (587.41 KB)
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jpg  1550.JPG (323.03 KB)
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Posted on: 2010/10/14 13:46
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Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10

Joined:
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I have to qualify the statement I made about the gentlemen from Lancaster. They did not allude to the fact that there is no good trout fishing in Lancaster Co. I think they meant that the Muddy Creek watershed is somewhat different from Lancaster streams and they very much enjoy fishing the MC watershed. So, no offense to the Lancaster area streams on their part-or mine.

Posted on: 2010/10/14 13:51


Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10

Joined:
2008/10/25 14:19
From York County
Posts: 2119
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Also found these the same day along Muddy Creek.

Please identify.

Attach file:



jpg  large paw print.JPG (122.91 KB)
1899_4cb7435cc777c.jpg 400X300 px

jpg  Unknown Scat.JPG (747.63 KB)
1899_4cb743b2140f0.jpg 900X675 px

Posted on: 2010/10/14 13:52
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Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10

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2006/10/18 15:46
From Patterson twp, Pa (Beaver Falls)
Posts: 6393
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sasquatch and a raccoon... figure out which one is which.

Posted on: 2010/10/14 14:21
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Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10

Joined:
2008/10/25 14:19
From York County
Posts: 2119
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LOL. I don't know the answer. I have the SAS Survival Handbook and there is a Chapter on animal sign in the book. It is written by John Wiseman, which I only ever remember becauses my hishschool baseball coach's name was John Wiseman also.

It's still in a box somewhere. I don't think there is a section on sasquatch sign.

Attach file:



jpg  The SAS Survival Handbook.jpg (281.42 KB)
1899_4cb76363ee697.jpg 1125X750 px

Posted on: 2010/10/14 16:01
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Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10
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Joined:
2006/9/9 19:16
From Dallastown, PA
Posts: 6828
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Quote:

Mike wrote:
So, in your opinion, has the stream's habitat (fish holding capacity) deteriorated to the point that the idea of C&R does not make sense? Would it be better to look for an alternative stream in the general geographical area, such as a trib or one of the Muddy Ck branches, to manage in this way (one that has better physical habitat, access, cooler summer temps) and return the present C&R stretch to a general stocked trout water or to no stocking at all?


Maybe you should take a walk along the stream sometime and decide for yourself. When was the last time you visited Muddy Creek? Have you ever walked the entire C&R FFO area? Fished it? There is plenty of habitat, there is plenty of parking, there is no issue with posting. Why would you even mention taking it to general regulations or no stocking at all? Doesn't the F&BC have enough trouble with the closing of water to access that it needs to go looking for water to take off the stocking list?

Often you make the assertion that us fishermen are the worst for making assessments of streams and their ability to hold trout. Why all of a sudden are you so interested in the word from someone who has only ever bellyached about streams on this website?

The only problem the Muddy Creek FFO area has is summer time temperatures where there is sometimes a low survival rate of stocked trout. Other years like last year it does fine. I expect Muddy Creek FFO is not alone in this. Is full summer survival the criteria for C&R FFO? What about other stream sections that get stocked that are C&R FFO? Why do they restock them?

Your relentless attempts to ruin this perfectly good fishery and destroy access that has been worked so hard for is insulting.

The mind boggles.......

Posted on: 2010/10/14 19:22
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Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10

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2008/10/25 14:19
From York County
Posts: 2119
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Maurice I am behind you 100 percent. I'm tired of Wooleybugger (1wt) coming on here and bashing Muddy Creek once or twice a year when he only ever fishes the stream within a stones throw of a bridge or road.

Muddy Creek hands down is the best watershed for trout in York County. If you have not covered a good 6-8 miles of the main branch, you don't know what your missing. Pretty much all of it's tributaries contain wild reproductive populations of brown trout, and they migrate in and out of the main branch throughout the year.

I can only think of two other watersheds that even come close to it in York Co. The Muddy Creek Chapter has done a lot of good work on the stream and it can only be appreciated if you have fished the many areas that have been improved. There is good water and nice holes around every corner of the stream.

Let the pictures speak for themselves. And this is only one small stretch.

Good enough lookin' to be on the home page of Paflyfish.com.

Attach file:



jpg  1544.JPG (269.35 KB)
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jpg  1545.JPG (366.27 KB)
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jpg  1546.JPG (472.04 KB)
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jpg  1547.JPG (161.76 KB)
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jpg  1548.JPG (170.53 KB)
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jpg  1549.JPG (270.06 KB)
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jpg  1551.JPG (231.20 KB)
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jpg  1550.JPG (323.03 KB)
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jpg  Does this look ERODED to you.JPG (660.46 KB)
1899_4cb799b25d7d3.jpg 800X600 px

jpg  MC Stream Improvement.JPG (557.24 KB)
1899_4cb799ca7c2ac.jpg 800X600 px

jpg  Looks FA FA Fishy to me.JPG (583.80 KB)
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Posted on: 2010/10/14 19:43
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Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10
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Oh boy, 1 wt visits the Muddy again....so you came on stocking day but didn't help stock, caught fish and belly ache about the stream. You are a piece of work. Lets see where to begin.....
Quote:

1wt wrote:
I fished the special regs section of Muddy Creek Tuesday and today, Wed.
I caught a few browns on buggers and Copper Johns, and one on top on a Yellow Stimulator 14.
All browns are MCTU browns, F&BC only stocks rainbows in the fall.
Quote:
Lots of trout in the stream, because it was stocked Tuesday, but it keeps getting wider and shallower every year. The last couple floods put so much gravel in the main trenches that this creek has changed for the bad!!

What is a main trench? The channel or Thaweg (deepest area of the channel) Its as deep as it ever was because it is bedrock. On years when there is low flow for long periods of time the the small storm events distribute gravel to the deeper sections "shallowing" the stream. Contrary to your report, we had a 75 year event just two weeks ago that blew out the gravel to the edges in the deeper pools and in the long flats the distribution is more even but thats typical in the dynamics of a stream that size. There is plenty of holding water, you caught trout, not enough for you? Here is your problem.....not habitat, the F&BC has reduced the allocations for the stream section over the years considerably, in 2000 they stocked 1200 preseason, 600 inseason and 400 in the fall (Total now from them is 900 trout) over a 1.6 mile stretch. MCTU used to put in around 1,000 also. Everyone was fat and happy, no one was looking at habitat as an issue. Now you have to go find the fish and the stream is a dump.
Quote:
At the parking area the big pool is only 2' deep now. Years ago it was 4' deep with nice current and rocks for the trout to hide.
again, walk across the stream and see how deep it is you will be surprised when you are up to your waist. Plenty of trout in there and plenty of holding water.Quote:

Upstream by the big rock is the only somewhat deep pool.
Somewhat deep, how about 7 feet deep.Quote:

I talked to several other fly guys and they all said that this creek is nothing like it used to be. Some caught a few fish...... but nothing like it was before.
Try giving the fish a chance to acclimate, I never fish directly after a stocking and expect to catch fish. Quote:

This creek might be saved if the banks were filled with rocks and the center dug deeper and the flow went through only 25' of creek instead of 50' that we have now.
This statement is embarrassing to me. What you are suggesting is to create a raceway narrow and deep so you can fish in a kiddie pool.Quote:

Probably too expensive to do, and with this new wacky weather it would just get washed away anyhow.
Now the trout just sit there in the shallow water to be picked off by herons and hawks.
Hawks do not dive for trout. Now ospreys and eagles.....yes they do....but again you are suggesting that this is a bad thing.....if you think about it, when you see herons, eagles and osprey the fishing must be pretty good.
Quote:
I caught some but it broke my heart. My how the streams are changin'


I am sorry your heart is broken, you have the opportunity to enjoy a wilderness experience so close to home where you can walk along nearly 2 miles of private property open to public fishing through the courtesy of landowners who graciously allow access and you choose to dump on it.

Not to mention that you can do this all fall/winter into spring and through the closed season in March and again during the regular trout season until the summer temps close it down for a few weeks.

Most would be grateful for such a thing, but then those grateful would probably be helping to provide that opportunity not using it and then dumping on it.

Who would you rather be????

Posted on: 2010/10/14 20:06
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Re: Muddy Creek FFO, York County, 10/13/10

Joined:
2008/10/25 14:19
From York County
Posts: 2119
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I could go on posting dozens of pictures showing wild trout and exceptionally good looking water.

Just go to Maurices page on here and browse through some of his pictures. I can tell you right now there are pics of wild trout from Muddy Creek that put many other stocked streams to shame. It really does contain quite a number of wild trout throughout the watershed. And the wild trout he has photos of are definately bigger than the ones I manage.

P.S.,

Just out of curiousity I clicked on Maurices screen name and bam !!! ........ first fish photo looked just as good as wild one from Penn's Creek.

Posted on: 2010/10/14 20:22
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