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Re: Little Lehigh 1/8/08
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2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
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Basing the percentages as you do on all "45,000 miles of streams and rivers in PA" is again a misleading argument in my opinion. The vast majority of flowing water is warm-water habitat. The fact is that Pennsylvania has a very large amount of wild trout streams of high-quality as recreational fisheries. As I implied initially, I admire your desire to "hang on to every mile of wild trout water and work to expand wild trout populations," but trying to do so by exageration and misinformation is not the right way - IMO.

Posted on: 2008/1/18 11:29
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Re: Little Lehigh 1/8/08

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2006/9/11 9:56
From Allentown, PA
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Again, I've missed alot of these posts, and had a lot to catch up on... I wanted to respond and support what JeffS wrote about the quality or rather the quantity of the fishery. There are A LOT of fish in that stream. It is true that just because you don't see them doesn't mean that they're not there. I don't really think the number of fish has gone down, and I don't know exactly what shape the natural reproduction rate is in, but I was commenting more about the general fishing conditions on the stream in my last post. The fish are there, and I still enjoy pretty good success there some days, but I think a lot can be done to improve the fishery... I think that it was protected and did really well for a while and then I think that is was let go for a while and kind of forgotten because of how good the conditions were. I guess I'm saying that its past glory was taken for granted in a way. Also...about the pressure, and to comment on what JackM had to say, I do understand that if I continue to fish there, I am contributing to the amount of pressure and therefore, don't really have much of a right to complain. It is for the very same reason that I've only been there a few times in the last couple years...and mostly on days that very few anglers would venture out.

Posted on: 2008/1/18 12:11


Re: Little Lehigh 1/8/08
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2006/9/11 8:26
From Chester County
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Jack wrote: “As I implied initially, I admire your desire to "hang on to every mile of wild trout water and work to expand wild trout populations," but trying to do so by exageration and misinformation is not the right way - IMO.”



Jack, I would like to add to my exaggerations and misinformation:


“Brook trout are the canary in the coal mine when it comes to water quality,” said Gary Berti, Trout Unlimited’s Eastern Brook Trout Campaign Coordinator. “The presence of brook trout in a watershed indicates that water quality is excellent. Declining brook trout populations can provide an early warning that the health of an entire stream, lake or river is at risk.”

From the PFBC site:

” Brook trout populations have been eliminated or greatly reduced throughout more than 70% of their historical habitat in Pennsylvania. These results reflect the condition of brook trout across their entire Eastern range, according to an assessment released today by Trout Unlimited and a coalition of state and federal agencies.”

The brook trout’s historic range and abundance has been considerably reduced throughout the east coast, including Pennsylvania. Habitat and water quality degradation caused by urbanization, acid mine drainage, acid deposition, and poor land use practices have contributed to the decline.”

“Brook trout historically thrived across Pennsylvania, with the exception of areas in the extreme western and southwestern portions of the state. Today, brook trout have been eliminated from 34% of their historic habitat in Pennsylvania, and they are greatly reduced in another 39% of habitat that formerly supported brook trout.”


Jack,
Indeed in PA there are many warm water fisheries in the 45,000 miles of streams in PA - coldwater habitat is harder to come by and should be conserved – that’s my point. The facts are stated above. Yes we are blessed with many miles of wild trout streams in PA – but far fewer than in the past. The point is to make all aware that wild trout streams should be protected and preserved.

Also, I catch a lot of fish too on the LL and other stocked streams, but I don’t lose sight of the fact that these fish have to be artificially stocked in order to maintain the fishery, when not that many years ago the stream had a healthy population of wild trout. Catching 20 or 30 stocked fish in a day on a stream is not really a testament to its health.

Posted on: 2008/1/18 12:37


Re: Little Lehigh 1/8/08

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2008/1/11 20:10
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afishinado –
Thank you for the apology, but I didn’t consider your post offensive.

I just took a look at the links you provided in your post and I am not sure if they give an accurate picture of the Little Lehigh. Take a look at the link below from the PFBC website. It shows the amount of wild fish that were found in the Heritage Section of the LL a few years ago. In addition, a few years ago I posted some information on this site from the PFBC that showed how many wild trout were in a section of water above the Heritage Special Reg area. The wild trout biomass above the hatchery was three times the Class A criteria. The reason this water was not re-classified was due to poor young of year reproduction. Obviously, this is a concern and another reason why anglers need to lend the stream a hand.

The LL really does support more wild fish than people think.

http://www.fish.state.pa.us/images/fi ... m/2003/5_08-11llehigh.htm

Posted on: 2008/1/19 20:06


Re: Little Lehigh 1/8/08

Joined:
2006/11/2 8:50
Posts: 5783
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Quote:


Second: often, but not always, excess pressure exists because the people frequenting the stream do not know of anywhere else to fish or think there are no other streams worthy of their attention. The unwritten policy of never mentioning streams that are not "well-known" contributes to this "problem." Sharing information about lesser known streams can spread the pressure.


Only a very small percentage of trout stream mileage in PA is crowded. Even on the Little Lehigh, only the special regs area is really crowded. Areas both upstream and downstream have decent numbers of trout, but are far from crowded.

Even though people complain about crowding, many fishermen actually LIKE to fish in crowded conditions. But you won't hear them admit that. But it's true.

I agree (as someone who lives near a few famous streams) that the policy of mentioning only famous streams, but not others, just compounds the crowding problem.

Go check out Mudlick Run at your earliest convenience.

Posted on: 2008/1/19 21:14


Re: Little Lehigh 1/8/08

Joined:
2006/9/13 10:18
From LV
Posts: 7222
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First of all the LL is a wild trout stream that is stocked, hatchery is part of the problem not the solution. 50 % of the fish in the hatchery pool area are wild brown trout as you get further away from the hatchery the fewer stockies you will see. At issue on the LL is run-off and with the development of the water shed we see more run-off.
The continuous channelization of the stream in the park doesn't help either. Channelization speeds up the erosion process and this only exacerbates the problems the stream has.
The most recent survey of the creek shows a 160 kg/ht population of wild brown trout in a 3 mile sectin from the covered bidge upstream.

Posted on: 2008/1/21 19:26
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It's time to stop stocking all wild trout streams no matter what Classification they are, and time to eradicate brown trout in some of our limestone streams and re-establish brookies in them.


Re: Little Lehigh 1/8/08

Joined:
2006/9/13 10:18
From LV
Posts: 7222
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As far as stream mileage in PA, there are approximately 83,000 miles of streams and rivers in PA. There is over 7,700 miles of water with reproducing wild trout in 3100 stream sections, which is less then 10% of the water. When the first Europeans arrived nearly all of this water was cold water, the only warm water stream streams in PA were large rivers, and many streams in SW PA where the top predator were smallmouth bass, in nearly all of the other streams for the Schuylkill River northwest of Philly to Lake Erie and most points in between the Brook Trout was the top predator. So any stream that has a reasonable chance of being restored, that is any stream that is near to the lethal temperature of trout, should be prioritized by groups for restoration. You could base this on many different points of degradation, and whether or not public access is an issue.

Posted on: 2008/1/21 19:41
_________________
It's time to stop stocking all wild trout streams no matter what Classification they are, and time to eradicate brown trout in some of our limestone streams and re-establish brookies in them.


Re: Little Lehigh 1/8/08

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2007/3/10 15:12
Posts: 12
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With reference to Chaz comments on the most recent survey in the Heritege section yielding a fish population of 160 kg/ht, I would like to know when the survey was conducted. It was earlier posted that the state shocked the section in July of 2003. It is not possible to compare the results of the surveys due to different parameters being reported.The 2003 survey reported total nunmbers of fish found while the"most recent" survey gives results in kg/ht. Also, while the 2003 survey gives somewhat impressive numbers, I personally feel that during the 4 1/2 years that have transpired since then, there has been significant deterioration of the Heritege section. There has been an explosion in the development of the area around the upper fly stretch with a huge housing development on a hill overlooking the stream fueling the siltation problem. I feel that this is a major factor in the decline of the fishing in the Heritege section. A few years ago, I was fishing in the upper fly stretch, when all of a sudden the stream turned chocolate brown with logs, branches, and other assorted debis came floating down. Fortunately , I was not in the creek at that time. It turns out that some joker was in the process of building a large home virtually on the banks of the river upstream, and the contractor was bull dozing excess soil and other debris right into the river! In light of what's going on, it is no wonder the river cannot maintain itself. Just my opinions.

Posted on: 2008/1/22 13:03



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