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Re: Elk Creek, Erie County PA 12/5/2009

Joined:
2009/11/4 22:06
Posts: 735
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you make a fatal error and call these fish steelhead... they aren't
the are lake run rainbows

the genetic inbreeding has led to no dirversity, natural selection, or survival of the fittest... creating a weak inbred population that is overstocked by a program driven by $$$ rather than management of a resource

Quote:
At this time of year, many fish are still very actively on the move.


this time of year??? we are just a few days from full freeze
the water is in the mid 30s
where are these fish moving??? they are already in upper elk


I managed a few good hookups but no fair hooked fish landedWe had many foul hooks due to the large amount of fish, and the low clear water.


this speaks volumes...
the fish were in low clear water because you herded them there
what makes you think any of the fish you lost were legit???


these fish get stuck in gin clear bathtubs... they try to find cover, until peoples idiotic antics push them out into water with no cover, and the start foul hooking them



force feeding- standing over a fish and hitting it on the nose 30 times with a tandem rig and then on the 31 it mouths the fly

Posted on: 2009/12/22 20:54


Re: Elk Creek, Erie County PA 12/5/2009

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13361
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Quote:
you make a fatal error and call these fish steelhead... they aren't the are lake run rainbows


They are both, as all steelhead are technically lake or ocean run rainbows, but they are indeed steelhead. Steelhead are a subspecies of rainbow trout and originate on the west coast, and each drainage evolved a different "strain".

PA steelhead originate from a weird mix of steelhead strains and are often termed a mutt, but they are true steelhead. We grew fish reared from eggs obtained from Washington State, as well as Michigan's Little Manistee (which originated in the McCloud River, CA) strain. I believe there is some influence from Skamania, Jacob's Creek, and London strains too. The London strain is from Ohio and could truly be called a domesticated rainbow, not a steelhead. So our fish are 90% a mix of various strains of true steelhead, and 10% domesticated rainbow. The mixing of the "true" strains was to increase return rates as well as spread out the run over the course of the season. Steelhead eggs are gathered from returning steelhead, and the system runs totally independent of the rest of our stocking system.

As far as inbreeding, the PA "mutt" strain is more genetically diverse than any natural population of trout found ANYWHERE. Genetic ancestry determines the time of the run. PA steelhead run anytime from late August through early May, which is the longest time frame I know of and reflects the genetic diversity. Eggs are collected throughout the whole year to maintain that diversity. And the migratory nature of steelhead makes them less inbred than say, you're average wild brown trout stream.

3-C-U also stocks a large number of steelhead. Obviously their genetics are strongly influenced by the fish commission. At least early in their operation, they seined WILD smolts as their brood stock. I don't know how they do it now.

I should note that our wild brown trout are also "mutts", a strain not native anywhere in the world, but rather a mix of natural strains that have adapted well.

Quote:
this time of year??? we are just a few days from full freeze
the water is in the mid 30s
where are these fish moving??? they are already in upper elk


Fish actively move until full blown ice-up (not just slush or shelf ice, we're talking dams of ice). They'll move again as soon as the streams thaw enough to allow passage. In years where the ice doesn't get severe enough to stop upstream migration, it doesn't stop for winter. Fish not only feed in 33 degree water, they've been recorded trying to breed in it. I've literally seen fish actively moving up through riffles with slush flowing over their backs.

At any given time throughout the year, you have active fish which are moving up, temporarily resting fish, and fallback fish (which will later make another push). These fish never settle down into long-term "holding" areas, and instead are looking to move all of the time.

There are miles of water, and several tributaries, above Foley's. I consider it to be middle Elk. These fish basically move upstream until there's no more room to do so, and even then, they keep trying.

I can't speak for this situation as I was not present, but they get into shallow water all on their own. While they will get into cover on occasion, as well as feeding lies. But the primary factor in location is not cover or feeding, but rather migration. This is why they differ from "regular" trout.

Posted on: 2009/12/23 8:48


Re: Elk Creek, Erie County PA 12/5/2009

Joined:
2006/10/18 15:46
From Patterson twp, Pa (Beaver Falls)
Posts: 6459
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ALL of the water up there this past weekend was low and clear. Whether the fish were still in their original holding point, or in the spot where we were fishing over them it was ALL low and clear. The action of the "push" did not change the way the conditions were. Foul hooking happens in those conditions. Whether using 1 or 2 flies, swinging or using lots of lead, it just happens. Also your theory of force feeding is rediculous. It is known that fish eat throughout the day and also put things in their mouth not knowing if it is food or not and then spit it out. We ALL catch fish this way, even trout. I've seen trout hit sticks, cigarette butts, and non food items, even wild trout. So your theory of force feeding is bogus.

If you have such a strong disgust for these "steelhead" why do you care how they were caught. The "imbred" fish can be for everyone else to catch then. I don't understand why you have such a passion for this topic if you hate the fish that I was attempting to catch.


Ryan

Posted on: 2009/12/23 9:27
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Re: Elk Creek, Erie County PA 12/5/2009

Joined:
2009/8/19 17:22
Posts: 1289
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i learn something everyday , i have been changing my offering to trout over the last 21 yrs and all i had to do was count my drift to 30 and on 31 they open their mouth so they can eat , i always changed at 6-10 drift .....my bad , oh well it still beats workin

Posted on: 2009/12/23 18:24


Re: Elk Creek, Erie County PA 12/5/2009

Joined:
2009/5/29 6:40
From harlansburg
Posts: 4423
Offline
pcray, had to laugh, trying to make a deer eat during a hunt!! all I could think of is what kind of fly would one tie to get a deer?? maybe a nice berry pattern. better have a good drag on that reel!!

Posted on: 2009/12/25 7:49



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