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Re: Who do you think is in the wrong?

Joined:
2010/8/3 14:27
Posts: 76
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The officer was doing his job. Maybe your friend did not intentionally break the law, but that doesnt make it ok. Trying to justify his violation by comparing it to others that you witness is laughable. Technically what your friend did is poaching. Poaching is not just illegally taking fish. Your friend should just consider it a lesson learned, pay the fine, and be happy he didnt get in more trouble.

Good luck, Tony

Posted on: 2013/4/29 17:36


Re: Who do you think is in the wrong?

Joined:
2009/10/15 13:45
From Eastern PA
Posts: 10280
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Quote:


Solution:

"A duly licensed angler who changes his residence during the licensing year must purchase a non-resiodent license to fish after the change of residence is effective, but shall be entitled to credit toward the cost of his or her non-resident license for all money paid to acquire the resident license for the same year...."


Correct.

Ignorance of the law is not an affirmative defense. The only part I question is the statement that the WCO threatened to put him in jail, confiscate his equipment AND his vehicle. I have a hard time believing that.

The old saying is that possession is 9/10ths of the law. Well this is the other 1/10th. When a person does not have a valid license to fish they are considered poachers regardless of possession of fish.

Posted on: 2013/4/29 17:37


Re: Who do you think is in the wrong?

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2006/9/9 22:43
From Delaware Co.
Posts: 3430
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At the very least the 38 bucks he spent should at least go towards his non resident license . Or the state should refund his money since when he bought the license he was a resident and he paid for a year worth of fishing.

Posted on: 2013/4/29 18:12
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Re: Who do you think is in the wrong?

Joined:
2012/2/15 16:35
From Butler, Pa
Posts: 566
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He said "I could take you gear and vehicle, but im not going to because I do not think you intentionally did this, I will take your license and you will receive the fine in the mail, you can buy a tourist license now"

So brad I guess now we have:

first regular license: $38
fine: $200
new license: $30
total: $278
days hes fishing: 4
so $/day ~$70

Im not starting this thread to argue whether or not he is poaching, there are more easy targets and they do not receive any fines. it is more to inform you guys if your ever in the situation or buy the multi year license and move out. I feel that in this case there should have been a warning issued and my friend informed. Im just very disappointed with the results

Posted on: 2013/4/29 18:28


Re: Who do you think is in the wrong?

Joined:
2012/2/15 16:35
From Butler, Pa
Posts: 566
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Frederick he asked about a refund on the orginal license and he said "be happy im not taking your equipment"

Posted on: 2013/4/29 18:30


Re: Who do you think is in the wrong?
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
Posts: 22130
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The WCO could have been more understanding, that is true. What exactly is the big deal? He bought a license legally, I presume, that is, when he was a Pennsylvania domicile. Now, if, on the other hand, he was already gone when he tried to sneak a PA-resident license, he deserved everything he got. Otherwise, the WCO could have understood his misunderstanding of the law and offered him some accomodation beyond the full-fledged fine for being a non-resident. They teach a concept in law school known as "prosecutorial discretion." This would have been a prime opportunity to excercise some of that.

Posted on: 2013/4/29 19:02
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Re: Who do you think is in the wrong?

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2010/8/9 16:23
Posts: 3364
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Quote:

JackM wrote:
Hmmmm, not worth fighting under the circumstances, but seems the license purchased as a resident should be good until it says it isn't. Don't have time to research the law, but if what is posted is all there is, I think there is a reasonable defense available. Not ignorance of the law-- rather, a poorly drafted law and the principle that penal laws must be strictly construed.

Solution:

"A duly licensed angler who changes his residence during the licensing year must purchase a non-resiodent license to fish after the change of residence is effective, but shall be entitled to credit toward the cost of his or her non-resident license for all money paid to acquire the resident license for the same year...."


Out of curiosity Jack, how is it any different then a drivers license?

If you move out of state, establish a new residency, and get a new drivers license, why would you expect your previous license to still be valid?

Posted on: 2013/4/29 19:11


Re: Who do you think is in the wrong?

Joined:
2010/5/1 9:10
From NE OH
Posts: 1260
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I think Jack has been exceptionally good on this thread. I like his solution. It's about as fair as fair can be.

Posted on: 2013/4/29 19:17
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Re: Who do you think is in the wrong?

Joined:
2006/11/20 10:08
Posts: 1192
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I agree with Jack. I think the WCO could have used some discretion in this instance. For instance, he could have insisted that Marvin's friend purchase a non-resident license without fining him. It is obvious this left a "bad taste," and I imagine it lowers both Marvin and his friend's respect for the PFBC. It sounds as though the WCO had "I have a gun and a badge" syndrome, even though he was technically correct. I think he represented the PFBC badly in this instance.

Posted on: 2013/4/29 19:18


Re: Who do you think is in the wrong?
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
Posts: 22130
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Quote:

wsender wrote:


Out of curiosity Jack, how is it any different then a drivers license?

If you move out of state, establish a new residency, and get a new drivers license, why would you expect your previous license to still be valid?


A little different since the new license would permit him to drive in PA. Not so with a new NC fishing licence. Perhaps he should have inquired whether the "offender" had also obtained a RESIDENT NC license for 2013.

But my point is that the law should not "snap up" unwitting violators. Is this a huge problem for PFBC? I mean people moving out of state mid-year and maintaining their resident's license? I think not.

So then it does not present a real law enforcement issue. Give a warning, or, as noted, make him buy the NR license within so many days-- provide proof and the citation will be dismissed. Now, turn your attention to real poachers.

Posted on: 2013/4/29 19:24

Edited by JackM on 2013/4/30 10:02:30
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Re: Who do you think is in the wrong?

Joined:
2012/1/16 18:57
From North East PA
Posts: 1302
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I saw my first uniformed WCO two weeks ago at a local DHALO we fish regularly. My friend and I had finished for the day and were sans-gear, chatting with a gentleman getting ready to fish. I thought for sure the WCO would come over, but he barely acknowledged we were there.

I wondered at the time if he was just at the end of a long day, or what?

This weekend, my friend was back at the same area and encountered some people (I won't call them fishermen) tramping down the creek, with their bait buckets. They came running down when they observed him playing a fish and proceeded to throw their baited hooks into the hole he was fishing. They said they had been told by someone at a bait-shop in Scranton that there was good fishing in this particular spot.

This follows a time when we had to mention to some young anglers that they were keeping fish illegally in the DHALO.

I know the WCO can't be everywhere, but it would be nice to see them around this piece of water some more.

I've rambled here and I apologize. The WCO discussed by the OP seems to have been a little over-zealous in his enforcement. The gentleman may have been violated the letter of the law, but the spirit?

Posted on: 2013/4/29 19:38
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Re: Who do you think is in the wrong?

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2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13357
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Jack has been very reasonable in this thread, I too will defend him. I agree with him.

The OP's friend broke the law by the letter of the law. It's rather poorly written as it pertains to this particular situation, and I read it fully after my initial post. I too would be confused and could view it in the same way. That's not a defense exactly, if I was in that situation and unsure, the right thing to do is contact someone and find out.

So yes, the friend was in the wrong. He probably can't fight it. It's best if he just pays the fine and everyone goes on with their lives. But I'm certainly not going to demonize him personally for honestly misinterpreting a poorly written law. I won't demonize the WCO, either. I think perhaps he should have used a little more "prosecutional discretion" than he did. But in the end, he did his job.

There are a lot of these situations. Ignorance is no excuse to get out of a fine, but it can make it a little more socially understandable in that the person was not knowingly and willfully doing anything wrong.

I myself had one at a local gun range a few years back, and posted about it here. Paid my fine and went on. My boss's daughter had one recently. She doesn't fish or know anything about it, nor does anyone in the family. Her and a few friends decided to go out on the first day, thought it'd be fun. They went to Dick's and bought licenses for the first time, along with rods, line, and the works. Nobody mentioned "trout stamp", they didn't know such a thing existed. They all got busted. My boss asked me about it and I shrugged. Yeah, they were wrong, the WCO was right. But what a way to encourage youngsters to get into the sport! Thought you did everything right and bam, you all have hefty fines.

Posted on: 2013/4/29 19:43


Re: Who do you think is in the wrong?

Joined:
2011/7/6 13:48
From Philadelphia PA
Posts: 1430
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Why did you not use the car with PA Plates? That would have been the simplest solution I would think. Anyways. If they really wanted to they could have taken all the gear and the car that transported thus.


Posted on: 2013/4/29 20:04
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Re: Who do you think is in the wrong?

Joined:
2006/9/11 11:30
Posts: 580
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I think Jack's answer is sensible. But, to be the Devil's advocate WCOs hear a lot of excuses and get to be pretty hard edged in my experience. Everybody has excuse after excuse and few people own up to their transgressions so WCOs get real tired of the nonsense. Maybe your friend didn't explain his situation well.

Also, most WCOs I know do use plenty of prudence. For example, adults taking kids fishing should have a license when they are handling the equipment. If a WCO sees an adult casting out a bobber with a Snoopy or Barbie rod and handing it to a kid I doubt the adult will get a citation. If the adult hands an expensive bait casting outfit with a $20 Japanese lure to a small child the WCO will probably view it differently,

Posted on: 2013/4/29 20:54


Re: Who do you think is in the wrong?

Joined:
2010/5/1 9:10
From NE OH
Posts: 1260
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Quote:

pcray1231 wrote:
Jack has been very reasonable in this thread, I too will defend him. I agree with him.


Now wait a dadburn minute here. You're supposed to "pcray" my statements...which is point out my inaccuracies... What the heck is this? I have NEVER had an engineer agree with me, in my home (my wife) or in my office (a patient). In this moment...I feel like we're brothers

Carry on...

Posted on: 2013/4/29 20:55
_________________
"You don't need 7x. All right, 7x...now you're just being stupid. That's ridiculous. You know what else...throw away the 6x, because that's garbage too." -Hank Patterson



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