Register now on PaFlyFish.com! Login
HOME FORUM BLOG PHOTOS LINKS


Sponsors

Browsing this Thread:   1 Anonymous Users



« 1 ... 9 10 11 (12) 13 14 »


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

Joined:
2008/10/25 14:19
From York County
Posts: 2119
Offline
Jack,

this last post here sounds like your are going a new direction. Your earlier posts give me the impression that you are upset with the fact that people are not posting these small streams.

Now you say that there are several streams you fish that you do not mention on here. So why not. It sounded to me previously, that you were preaching to us to post about these lesser known places.

Now you say you have several streams you do not make mention of on here,

and that sounds almost in agreement with my stance. Like I had said, I have a limited number of streams I have kept anonymous.

I wouldn't be to bothered if I ran into someone in the future on one of these streams, though I don't feel as if they need mentioning publicly.

Posted on: 2010/6/22 22:42
_________________
~ Fly Fishing ~ Personal therapy on the water. Equipment and travel rates apply.


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

Joined:
2009/8/19 17:22
Posts: 1289
Offline
when i went to oil creek this year for the sulfurs the whole catch and release area was packed and most guys i would guess older than 65 and most said they had been fishing it for 20- 30 yrs , i forgot to ask em which forum they found it on !!! i am a firm believer in word of mouth being almost as damaging as the net too

Posted on: 2010/6/22 22:43


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 17595
Offline
That's pretty good stuff there, Jack.

Quote:

JackM wrote:
Quote:

FarmerDave wrote:
What's funny is there seems to be more complaining, or at least more intense complaiing about not giving enough info than there is about people giving out too much info in this very public forum.


Huh? I think you are delusional. No one has ever been compelled, cajoled or made to feel ashamed, or accused of slaughter of innocent trouts for not giving up information. Ever.


I don't know where the accusation part comes from other than it is the usual exageration and rhetoric from a certain political persuasion, so i will ignore that.

But the part about guilt trips ans such... I don't know if anyone has been compelled, cajoled or made to feel ashamed, but the attempt has certainly been made often enough.

Accused of being selfish...

More anglers means more friends...

Etc, etc.

So, who is it that is delusional?

Quote:
Without a doubt, this issue arises only from people whining when their secret stream has been mentioned. Debates and disagreements are fun, but turning reality on its head in service of one's point of view is, well, FOX-like, to say the least.
.

If what you are saying is true (the first sentence in the second quote), and I'm not saying it isn't, then it must be originating from the stream reports section. I don't read those. But if it is originating here, probably 9 times out of 10, it starts with someone questioning why anyone would complain about spot burning. Definitely a majority...

But that wasn't even what i was talking about. I'm talking about once the discussion starts. The complaints about people being tight lipped seem to be more intense and certainly do try to play the guilt trip more than the other side.

But unlike most, I'll admit I may be a little bias on this.

The lines still crack me up.

And I never whine when one of "my secret streams" are outed. What good would it do? In fact, it would draw more unwanted attention to it. Instead, I use the PM, and give honest help while being respectful and explain why I am using the PM instead of the public forum. so far everyone has appreciated the help, and especially appreciated that i didn't share it with everyone. What was that that someone saif about only one side being selfish?

Apparently the sing along around the campfire at the Jam was rained out the night i was there.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 6:20
_________________
There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 17595
Offline
Quote:

pcray1231 wrote:
The answer to K&T, to me, really boils down to whether the stream is in danger or not. If, for instance, the entire watershed is in public hands, carries HQ water designation, and is in no direct danger, then more harm will be done than good by publicizing it.

But many streams face significant threats, especially from development in their watersheds. Those streams need to be discussed, ESPECIALLY THE ONES THAT ARE UNDER THE RADAR. We need to let people know how valuable they really are.

Yes, publicization brings negatives (crowds). But I'd rather have a crowded good stream than a lonely ruined one.


I like that one Pat.

It depends on the stream.

There is no single blanket statement in regards to this discussion that covers every stream although some people seem to try that every time it comes up.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 6:26
_________________
There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
Posts: 21708
Offline
Jake I invite you to re-examine every post I have ever made on this topic. I am confident you will not find me belittling anyone for keeping a secret. What you will find is:

1. That I don't think keeping secrets does anything special for the trout populations of your secret streams;

2. That keeping secrets tends to keep the better known streams more crowded than they need to be;

3. That nobody who chooses to post about any particular stream should have to worry about getting criticized for doing so just because another board member thinks that stream is secret or will be harmed by the post; and

4. That people who do share lesser known waters are doing a service to other anglers who have a limited knowledge of the availability of recreational opportunities in our Commonwealth and beyond.

I decide for myself whether to post a report on any given stream. I don't seek anyone else's permission. My categorization of streams as sensitive or not is not the same as yours. You may think posting about a certain water is OK and I may think it isn't. Other boards have tried to create rules about what can or cannot be mentioned. They all fail to accomplish anything good, in my opinion. What they do accomplish is the watering-down of the value of the board as an information source.

It is not hyperbole, I believe, to foresee that once "spot-burning" becomes a no-no, then so will hatch-burning, technique-burning, fly-pattern burning, etc. Simply put: it creates an atmosphere where anglers "in-the-know" seem to purposely be preventing other anglers from deriving the same enjoyment from the sport as the in-the-know anglers allow themselves. It has an odor of elitism if it doesn't just outright stink. Add to this some anglers thinking it is their further right to elevate this withholding of information to an ethic so that those who choose not to follow it are labeled outcasts, attention whores, anti-conservationist, or many other pejorative descriptions that frankly are insulting beyond the point of being just inaccurate.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 6:27
_________________
I don't like spinach, and I'm glad I don't, because if I liked it I'd eat it, and I just hate it. --Clarence Darrow


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 17595
Offline
Quote:

jayL wrote:
Just as you find my attempting to logically justify my stance annoying, I find it annoying that you are trying to make a logical argument that "spreading the pressure" is the right thing to do.



"Spreading the pressure" ... "redistributing the wealth"

Am I detecting a theme here?

Posted on: 2010/6/23 6:39
_________________
There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 17595
Offline
I'm going to spot burn a coon hunting spot. It's my back yard.

I must be getting desperate.

Attach file:



jpg  MDGC0008.JPG (813.30 KB)
348_4c21e5dc309ce.jpg 2336X1752 px

Posted on: 2010/6/23 6:45
_________________
There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
Posts: 21708
Offline
Quote:

FarmerDave wrote:
Quote:

jayL wrote:
Just as you find my attempting to logically justify my stance annoying, I find it annoying that you are trying to make a logical argument that "spreading the pressure" is the right thing to do.



"Spreading the pressure" ... "redistributing the wealth"

Am I detecting a theme here?


Yes you are. Both stem from the same philosophy about who "owns" the resources naturally occuring on this earth.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 6:50
_________________
I don't like spinach, and I'm glad I don't, because if I liked it I'd eat it, and I just hate it. --Clarence Darrow


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 17595
Offline
I see. so wealth is naturally occuring. Where can i git me one of them thar money trees.

I'm absolutely willing to share any stream with anyone else. But I don't have to spoon feed it.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 7:14
_________________
There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
Posts: 21708
Offline
We're now way off topic, but you don't need a money tree, just a few thousand acres of land. Oh, its all owned by someone else. Well, you can always be a tenant.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 7:22
_________________
I don't like spinach, and I'm glad I don't, because if I liked it I'd eat it, and I just hate it. --Clarence Darrow


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 17595
Offline
Owned by someone else? Maybe because they paid for it?

I'll sell you mine fo rthe right price.

Do you really want to steer this in the direction of property owner rights?

And i wasn't off topic so either you have a mouse in your pocket or you are talking to yourself.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 7:43
_________________
There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

Joined:
2008/12/21 19:48
Posts: 562
Offline
AHHHH this explains everything.........!!! dave you're right, they own it cause they paid for it...
im going to button the keyboard, but suffice it to say my assumptions were correct...can smell em a mile away...

Posted on: 2010/6/23 8:01
_________________
"I mean just look at this guys profile pic.. bahahahha" - Evanmart


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 12923
Offline
Well, I might have completely different political views as Jack, but there are parts I agree with him on here. I'm not quite as far in that camp as him. To his previous (very good) post:

Quote:
1. That I don't think keeping secrets does anything special for the trout populations of your secret streams.


Semi-agree. I think the effect of pressure on actual fish populations is vastly overrated. But its not zero. And every stream is different. Pressure does make the fish harder to catch.

Quote:
2. That keeping secrets tends to keep the better known streams more crowded than they need to be;


Yes. We do indeed overfish our famous streams, and underfish a number of other waterways. That said, there are some smaller streams that couldn't handle the pressure if they got it. And our famous streams are famous because they can handle the pressure.

Quote:
4. That people who do share lesser known waters are doing a service to other anglers who have a limited knowledge of the availability of recreational opportunities in our Commonwealth and beyond.


Fully agree. I really don't care to do them a "service", it's not out of the goodness of my heart! But I do think that we have a problem where not enough anglers know that these "less than famous" fisheries even exist. That is a problem from a conservation standpoint. The more people "get around", the more they see the big picture instead of having this narrow focus on one stream. The big picture is ridiculously impressive, and makes us stronger conservationists.

Yeah, it depends on the stream. Here's some rules I follow.

1. It is definitely ok, in fact good, to discuss the less famous fisheries in general and how to find them so that people know they are out there, without actually mentioning the actual name.

2. It is a responsibility to name it if it faces an immediate threat. Where it gets tricky is deciding what constitutes a threat. For instance, I would say Spring Creek is under constant threat just for the fact of being located in a populated area that is growing very fast. Development, road building, pollution, etc. On the other hand, a recent argument on a SE limestoner where hogs were stocked in a small area, thats more questionable. I don't blame Sal as he clearly judged it as a threat. I don't blame others for crying foul either, as they judged it not a threat.

3. If there is no immediate threat, the decision on whether to name it is open for opinion. It should take into effect how much extra pressure the stream is likely to get and how much it is capable of handling, which itself is a function of size, holding water, fertility, species of fish, regulations, proximity to urban areas, ease of access, fishing "culture" of the region, who owns the land and whether its in danger of being posted, and a million other factors.

Basically, in principle I fall in Jack's camp, for much of the same reasons. But I allow that there are a million different exceptions. Posting about streams carries both good and bad effects. But if the increased pressure is likely to result in posted land, for instance, then none of those good effects will be realized anyway.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 9:00


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 17595
Offline
pcray, I agree with parts of what Jack wrote, too. Just don't tell him that.

I just like to see what rhetoric he comes up with next.

You pointed out a few.

Another one that I think he touched on is the fact that complaining about spot burning a specific individual stream on a public forum does no good at all.

There might be more. I don't recall.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 9:11
_________________
There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

Joined:
2009/7/29 10:25
Posts: 1689
Offline
pcray1231 wrote:
"The answer to K&T, to me, really boils down to whether the stream is in danger or not. If, for instance, the entire watershed is in public hands, carries HQ water designation, and is in no direct danger, then more harm will be done than good by publicizing it.

But many streams face significant threats, especially from development in their watersheds. Those streams need to be discussed, ESPECIALLY THE ONES THAT ARE UNDER THE RADAR. We need to let people know how valuable they really are."

I like this a lot. If a stream is not well known and faces no development threat, etc., then posting a fish-hero report could screw up the fishing for the guys who fish it now. I would not want to do that... just like I would not want some of my favorite streams that are not well known and not threatened to be described here in that way.

But if a stream is already well known and is on public land - slate, cedar, etc - then reports that give water temps, conditions, hatches, etc., probably help the people who already fish there.

So we just need to think about the welfare of the stream, the private landowner (if any), and the guys who fish there now in posting reports.

Posted on: 2010/6/23 9:18



« 1 ... 9 10 11 (12) 13 14 »



You can view topic.
You cannot start a new topic.
You cannot reply to posts.
You cannot edit your posts.
You cannot delete your posts.
You cannot add new polls.
You cannot vote in polls.
You cannot attach files to posts.
You cannot post without approval.

[Advanced Search]





Site Content
Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!
Stay Connected

twitterfeed.com facebook instagram RSS Feed

Sponsors
Polls
What kind of streams do you primarily fish?
Approved Trout Waters (Stocked Fish)
Class A Wild Trout Streams
Special Regulation Areas
Wilderness Trout Streams
No Preference All Trout Streams
114 total votes!
The poll will close at 2014/4/30 15:00
3 Comments
USGS Water Levels





Copyright 2014 by PaFlyFish.com | Privacy Policy| Provided by Kile Media Group | Design by 7dana.com