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Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

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2006/12/13 9:28
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salvelinusfontinalis wrote:
What tiny stream have a named except for a few?

I think i have only named about 4 in the past 4 years. Of those 4, a few had a threat. One still does and no one from this board (except 3 that I have shown it to) goes to that stream which surprises the hell out of me.

If we are talking about small wild trout streams near population centers and not stocked or special reg area streams........then Valley cant be spot burnt.


Sal, if that is directed at my last response, I wasn't pointing a finger at anybody. I even specifically said I didn't see it. Just letting you know. But I suspect it wasn't a result of my response.

I personally don't feel that Valley would be a spot burn. Mazybe 200 years ago, but now? And from what I have seen on here from you ... if you did mention one that I would normally consider questionable, I would assume it was for a good reason (like you stated). and i certainly would not jump on you in the public forum for it. I may respond by PM though, and I would be respectful in my response.

crying about spot burning on a public site just draws more attention to the spot being burned.

I don't typically consider streams near urban centers as spot burning either, but and respect that other's might. I just don't fiosh those streams. Just being seen fishing there is in a way, a spot burn (if you consider talking about it as being one). People see you fishing there and "hey, there's fish in there!"

That is why on some streams I fish (or used to fish), I never park near the stream and while fishing it I stay away from the road where I might be seen.

Posted on: 2010/6/22 15:38
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Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break
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Quote:

FarmerDave wrote:
What's funny is there seems to be more complaining, or at least more intense complaiing about not giving enough info than there is about people giving out too much info in this very public forum.


Huh? I think you are delusional. No one has ever been compelled, cajoled or made to feel ashamed, or accused of slaughter of innocent trouts for not giving up information. Ever. Without a doubt, this issue arises only from people whining when their secret stream has been mentioned. Debates and disagreements are fun, but turning reality on its head in service of one's point of view is, well, FOX-like, to say the least.

Posted on: 2010/6/22 15:48
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I don't like scrambled eggs, and I'm glad I don't, because if I liked them, I'd eat them, and I just hate them. --Hank


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

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alpha i wont beat you up too bad, but i think you should read some of the posts in the thread, based on your statement i think you're kind of missing the point, big time. (noone is talking about streams such as the ones you mentioned, they arent really at issue) Andddd i am on the fence about the big D i fish it insessently(however you spell that) and much is made of temps, but alot of the people complaining about flows are the ones who 1. have been flooded out, or 2. have a stake and a need to drift it... that place believe it or not, would do without half the anglers that fish it...(from a selfish standpoint) and up there sal's thinking holds true, 10 percent of the people catch 90 percent of the fish....the rest just get in the way

Posted on: 2010/6/22 16:08
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Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

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From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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Anyhow, I'll leave you with this thought: until Allen G. Eastby's sellout article in 1979 (?) in F&S, Spring Creek was "under the radar" as one guy stated, and you had lots of elbow room. People had pretty much abandoned the stream b/c of the chemicals' leading to the no-kill regs.


And if it hadn't been publicized, would the PFBC later bought a significant part of it? If not, how much of it would be currently posted? What would be happening to the canyon section right now? How much more development would have occurred on its banks without concern for water quality? How bout the acid rock disaster at skytop, would we have put as much effort at solving that, or would rainwater just been allowed to run right over top the pyrite for eternity? With the new highway, would the settling ponds been implemented? Would the hatcheries have as strict of effluent restrictions? Would TU have done as much quality work to protect the stream? Would pollution and siltation regulations been as strict?

Spring Creek has been, and still is under assault. The area is just growing too fast. I don't know if angler concerns will be enough to save the stream long-term. But you can bet we're well better off than we would be without those efforts. I'm not totally on the opposite side as you, but if you're pointing at Spring Creek, I'm not sure I know of any stream thats benefitted more due to having friends than that one. If Spring Creek is our "worst-case" scenario, well, sign me up! To me it's the poster child for the benefits of a stream having friends.

Had it remained under the radar, it would have died under the radar. I realize it might not be as good a situation as it once was, and I can sympathize with the old-timers that are saddened by these developments. But these developments are the lesser of evils, those same people would be saddened even more if they could see what Spring Creek would have become without powerful allies. And if Spring Creek had died, all those people on its banks would add to those on the banks of Penns, Fishing, and the LJR.

Posted on: 2010/6/22 16:26


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

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From Bozeman
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Agreed. I think it's silly to worry about discussing spring creek.

Then again, there area areas of spring creek that I won't post about, but that's because I'm happy with most of the crowds going to benner.

But honestly, when I go to spring creek, I expect crowds.

Posted on: 2010/6/22 16:35


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

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The answer to K&T, to me, really boils down to whether the stream is in danger or not. If, for instance, the entire watershed is in public hands, carries HQ water designation, and is in no direct danger, then more harm will be done than good by publicizing it.

But many streams face significant threats, especially from development in their watersheds. Those streams need to be discussed, ESPECIALLY THE ONES THAT ARE UNDER THE RADAR. We need to let people know how valuable they really are.

Yes, publicization brings negatives (crowds). But I'd rather have a crowded good stream than a lonely ruined one.

Posted on: 2010/6/22 16:41


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

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2008/10/25 14:19
From York County
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A lonely ruined one?

Believe it or not there are many streams in this state which are in excellent condition, have great fish populations, and are protected, yet they are unstocked, unfished, and thankfully a few of them are still hidden from certain people who think they'd rather be on a "crowded good stream".

In the case of very small wild trout streams, the chain of events is more like this;

Excellent lonely stream

crowded stream

lonely ruined stream

If I decided to make a trip to a certain wild brookie stream including a beaver dam or two, come back and post a full report,
with multiple pictures of beautiful wild brook trout ranging from 9 - 14 inches in length, giving a full description of my awesome trip including it's location and stream name I garauntee you within a year maybe two or three there would be only chubs and 6-8 inch brook trout left.

Basically it would be just like the other brook trout streams you read about on here. Lots of small sardine like brookies.

There are, in my own humble oppinion, a small handful of streams that have virtually no fishing pressure, and it is because of this that there are larger fish. I know where one or two are, and if I didn't keep my mouth shut they wouldn't be there.

I'll talk about your clarks, breeches, codorus, letort, manada, stony, big spring, green spring, spring, penns, tully, LL, LJ, frankie, tuncannock, wylusing, lackawanna, pine, casselman, conewago, etc. etc. all day long, those arent' even close to being hidden jems. I'm talkin' about streams that just don't get fished, historically haven't really ever been fished, and have never been mentioned on here. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of kinda known streams to fish why lead the circus act up my great little lonely gem.

Posted on: 2010/6/22 17:39
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Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break
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Quote:

JakesLeakyWaders wrote:

I'll talk about your clarks, breeches, codorus, letort, manada, stony, big spring, green spring, spring, penns, tully, LL, LJ, frankie, tuncannock, wylusing, lackawanna, pine, casselman, conewago, etc. etc. all day long, ....


See, this is what kills me and strikes me as a naked hypocrisy. You will out streams that YOU think aren't hidden gems or can handle the pressure, or are already crowded and well-known and couldn't care less how it effects anglers who fish these waters, but if YOUR stream gets mentioned, you expect others to feel bad about it. I have more respect for a position that is against naming any stream, big, small, wild, stocked, known or relatively unknown, than the position that says it is AOK to talk about any stream but the one YOU would like to fish in relative solitude.

And one more thing now that my dander is raised:

These "well-known" streams are "well-known" for a reason. They are some of our best streams in terms of fish populations, hatches, access and aesthetic charm. I would like to see a few less people on each of them and if that means having those people move to other streams because they have learned that the other stream provides pleasant recreation, then so be it.

Posted on: 2010/6/22 20:19
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I don't like scrambled eggs, and I'm glad I don't, because if I liked them, I'd eat them, and I just hate them. --Hank


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

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From Bozeman
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That's your preference.

Luckily, there appears to be a majority that adhere to a code of silence about smaller, less trafficked wild streams. I see no problem with informing unknowing anglers about that, and backlash for breaking a cultural norm within such a dedicated group of enthusiasts is to be expected. It seems to be a natural part of FF culture, and IMO, is to be embraced despite any supposed logical inconsistency.

I'd like to have less crowding on the big time streams too, but not at the expense of losing the ability to find solitude on lesser known but only marginally less productive streams. My stance is that productivity is a function of lower angler traffic, so it's not an issue of increasing pressure while preserving the experience. Spreading the pressure equates to the demise of the unique experience that these streams provide.

And as I've said (and even named names), this line of thought also applies to lesser known parts of more heavily used streams.

Posted on: 2010/6/22 20:25


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break
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Jay, then why with all the pressure and constant "outing" does Spring Creek still give up and contain so many damn fish?

And may I ask you, how many practices and behaviors have you EVER made this comment about:

"It... is to be embraced despite any supposed logical inconsistency."

Belief in God?

Posted on: 2010/6/22 20:29
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I don't like scrambled eggs, and I'm glad I don't, because if I liked them, I'd eat them, and I just hate them. --Hank


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

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Spring creek is widely recognized as an anomaly. I don't profess to know what causes that, but people more knowledgeable than I have stated it multiple times. Honestly, the fact that there are so many other anglers on spring is a big drawback for me, and I basically only fish it when conditions suck elsewhere.

Other streams in its league are larger and more difficult to access, so the quality of the experience is preserved on them too.

And I've come to that conclusion about a few things. Society isn't always logical. If we're going to delve into that, then why bother fishing in the first place? I participate in many seemingly illogical activities for tradition's sake, among other things.

The reason? I enjoy it.

The fact remains that there are angling experiences to be had, though increasingly rare in this region, that are unsustainable if the pressure were to spread. I simply prefer to preserve those experiences. I do not hold disdain for any anglers that I happen to see on those streams, but I find it to be highly unnecessary to broadcast the details to strangers. I feel that way about streams around Philly, just as I do about streams in central PA, and even Montana. I have found that view to be consistent with what appears to be a piece of FF heritage, therefore see no need to rid myself of it.

Consider it this way:

I have two or three local favorite small pieces of water that I enjoy. Some guy down the street has two or three of his own. We can both enjoy the experience to the fullest. Tell me about his favorites, and him about mine, and we both now run the risk of running afoul of each other. Add in the 15 strangers that didn't care enough to seek those streams out, but will now do so because their curiosity outweighs the effort. The experience is compromised for all at this point. No net happiness has been gained. Frankly, if you were to enjoy the experience of this kind of stream enough, you'll find the stream without reading a report. It's like wasting your last few sips of fine bourbon on a guy that's completely satisfied with ezra. Ok, that was a bad analogy, but I couldn't resist.

Give it a try like I did. Find a nice stream that doesn't get pounded, and keep it close to your vest. You may come to an appreciation for it. It feels good, and IMO, is a great facet of our illogical sport. When it comes time to share the joy with someone you respect, it's all the more pleasurable. And really, after all of these useless words that I type, that's the point. The fact that lesser pressured streams exist is an asset to the sport. I don't see why the WWW should change our culture to the extent that it has to disappear. Finding and keeping secrets is simply enjoyable, and enriches the experiences. If there's a few people blabbing about everyone's semi-secrets for no real reason, they lose the ability to enjoy that. I feel no need to have these locations broadcast, but I would love to share the experience by helping others to find something to keep under their own hat. I have been taught to hold a profound respect for the traditions of this sport, and judicious secrecy is one of them.

Posted on: 2010/6/22 20:34


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

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Jack Wrote ---

"Jay, then why with all the pressure and constant "outing" does Spring Creek still give up and contain so many damn fish? "


answer... Because you cant keep any fish the entire length!!! (and its fertile) Entire stream has been no kill for years...and years...

i think some people are still actually afraid to eat fish from it because of the chemical spill...regardless of the regulations

Posted on: 2010/6/22 21:21
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Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

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2008/10/25 14:19
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Thank you Jay, I agree with you. I'm feelin' it.

Jack, I understand your logic, you want to spread out the fishing pressure, and share the wealth of our streams, I understand it, I just don't agree with 100%. However, I do agree with your logic at least as long as the stream can handle more than 2 or three anglers a week, some streams re much to small and fragile for that kind of pressure and should be obscured from the limelight.

All of the streams that I mentioned are just a small number of many streams which are well known, well spoken of, and often fished. Just because I say the aren't gems doesn't mean they aren't great, many of them are. To me, a gem is something that is hidden away.

I don't mind posting about a new stream every now and then, but nobody can expect me to give them all away. Almost all of the streams I fish have at least some fishing pressure, if I spot burn the very, very few streams I fish that have little to no pressure, I cannot look forward my solitude, and you know Jack, I have to have those very few close to my heart personal places. And yeah, it makes me feel smug, I don't feel guilty about that at all. If I find someone there someday,then so be it, I'm cool with that.

Posted on: 2010/6/22 22:23
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Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break
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Jay, your last paragraph is a bit patronizing. In fact, I find it amusing that you and others on the side of secrecy assume wrongly that my position is not based upon experience with small streams and little known streams. I have fished my share and there are some I have never mentioned, which is my right. That right carries with it, however, the complimentary right of an individual to discuss the stream openly if he or she chooses. I don't get angry or protest, I just ignore it. Spring Creek will still be posted about 9 times more often than my little secret. And it will remain 9 times more crowded.

Posted on: 2010/6/22 22:24
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I don't like scrambled eggs, and I'm glad I don't, because if I liked them, I'd eat them, and I just hate them. --Hank


Re: Spot Burning...Gim me a break

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From Bozeman
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Just as you find my attempting to logically justify my stance annoying, I find it annoying that you are trying to make a logical argument that "spreading the pressure" is the right thing to do.

It's all a matter of preference, and I choose to promote what I feel to be an important tenet of FF culture.

I basically agree with Jake's last thought. For the thousandth time, preserving these experiences is important, and I see no problem with promoting that line of thinking. If it takes a comment to someone that I feel is recklessly promoting a stream for no reason, I have no issues making it, as is my right. I, frankly, don't care whether anyone thinks that's right.

I apologize for being patronizing, but your earlier arguments implied to me that you've never attempted to keep any secrets. You've obviously fished lesser known streams, and I didn't intend to imply that you haven't.

Posted on: 2010/6/22 22:33



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