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Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 18108
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Quote:

JackM wrote:
CaptMatt, it may surprise you and others to know that I often talk gently to the fish as I land and release them. Asking their patience of me while I remove the barbless hook. I have not gone so far as to kiss them-- that would be too Bassmaster-ish-- but I have been known to politely thank them for the pleasure of their acquaintance.


Now that's funny. Last hunting season I started talking gently to a deer that was standing right in front of me. I talked to her for a minute or so then sent hher on her way. My neighbor heard me talking, and hasn't let me forget it to this day. The deer wisperer.

Posted on: 2007/5/16 16:00
_________________
There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Little J No More

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2006/11/7 8:32
From South West FL
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For the record I’m not that insane. I do sneak a kiss here and there though. Also, Sail Cats are nasty critters, poisonous barbs and all. I keep a stick on board and beat them over the head before removing the hook. There I feel better. For a while I think you guys thought I was a tree hugger. Hope that helps

Posted on: 2007/5/16 16:04


Re: Little J No More
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2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
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Quote:

FarmerDave wrote:
Last hunting season I started talking gently to a deer that was standing right in front of me. I talked to her for a minute or so then sent hher on her way. My neighbor heard me talking, and hasn't let me forget it to this day. The deer wisperer.


I have had a few words with a Great Blue Heron, but there was nothing gentle about it. He didn't seem to give two $#!ts.

Posted on: 2007/5/16 16:34
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Re: Little J No More

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2006/10/26 23:01
From Ohio
Posts: 657
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Yeah, I have a hard time convincing herons to practice C and R, let alone adhere to the creel limits. They seem to value trout only for their meat. Stupid herons.

I think we all agree on 90% of things but yet continue to focus on the other 10%.

I practice C and R 95% of the time. My last trout I killed is pictured in my Avatar and that was a stocker 18 months ago.
Many of my hunting and gear/baitfishing friends would argue that C and R is inflicting possibly pain without a good enough purpose....only your entertainement. If you value fish only for their meat, that is a valid arguement.

Here's what I object to:

1) Having a small but vocal minority of the C and R crowd insinuate that many baitfisherman are poachers/literbugs/slobs/incompetent fisherman, etc, etc, etc, etc. Its only a small minority of bait and meat fisherman. I respect the passion of the C and R zealots but am afriad his approach will render him ineffective.

2) Insinuating that bait fisherman and meat fisherman do not care about or value trout. They just value it in another way. C and R fisherman don't not have a monopoly on ethical angling.

3) Insinuating that bait fisherman and meat fisherman do not have a conservation ethic. They probably have a bigger vested interest in limiting their creel to ensure their harvest is sustainable. They will probably stop fishing threatened fisheries long before C and R fisherman do.....simply because the fishing will suck from a meat fishing perspective.

4) Here's the kicker......and this may be a big misperception on my part and my friends part but pisses my gear/bait/meat fishing friends off to no end.....is when regs appear to be used to limit the number and types of fisherman on a section of prime trout stream. Take the regs on the little J, for example. Meat fisherman won't go there because there is no meat to be had because of the regs. Almost all bait fisherman and a high percentage of gear fisherman do no practice C and R, so you basically are making the little J a playground for C and R flyfisherman. I mean do you really think going from a 24" limit with artifical lures only to baitfishing with C and R only really protects more fish? If you really needed more "protection" for the little J why not go single hook or barbless? How does allowing bait in a C and R environment make any sense at all? Are their really that many fish on the Liittle J over 24" that would be available to harvest? I mean I realize it was a political and not logical solution, but come on, it all looks very fishy, especially the last step.....

Would I enjoy fishing there as a C and R fisherman? Absolutely, it'll proabably be a lot less crowded. But its just not fair to all those people buy trout stamps and who fish for food first and for entertainment second.

It is obvious to me that Maurice, Chaz, and others work very hard to conserve and protect trout, but I think a lot of potential allies to our cause are lost when C and R regs are a focal point of a conservation platform. You lost a lot of defenders of the little J went C and R when you didn't have to.

C and R is just a means to an end and shouldn't be valued just to be valued. You need to prove its the only reasonable effective option available, and we are definitely far from that in most watersheds IMHO.

Posted on: 2007/5/16 17:26


Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
Posts: 6430
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well i give up. your right im the villian here.

Posted on: 2007/5/16 17:51
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Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2006/10/26 23:01
From Ohio
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You are not the villian. Your intentions are pristine. I'm just saying if you consider changing your tactics, you might actually acheive your goals, most of which we share in common, a lot quicker.

Posted on: 2007/5/16 18:24


Re: Little J No More

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2006/10/26 23:01
From Ohio
Posts: 657
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Just another example....those fish I filleted fed my in-laws that night. None of them fish. They said it was the best fish they had ever eaten and we spent 15-20 minutes talking about trout and where the stream was where I caught them in. That evening, a half dozen more people valued trout and East Hickory Creek in particular. My mother in law now sews rod socks for free for the rods I auction off for conservation charities.

This is the whole point behind TU's "Eat Wild Salmon" campaign....to get money and awareness from a non-fishing but fish eating public to support the wild fisheries. Sustanable harvest is can bring awareness and economic value to a wild fishery.

Posted on: 2007/5/16 18:47


Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 18108
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Quote:

CaptMatt wrote:
For the record I’m not that insane. I do sneak a kiss here and there though. Also, Sail Cats are nasty critters, poisonous barbs and all. I keep a stick on board and beat them over the head before removing the hook. There I feel better. For a while I think you guys thought I was a tree hugger. Hope that helps


Dude, a sail cat is not even a fish. It's a regular cat that has been run over several times and dried in the sun to a flat sheet. You peel them off the road, and they fly like a frisbee.

By the way, I never thought you were a tree hugger, but now after I see how you deal with catfish, I think you are a sissy. I hope you are eating those catfish after clubbing them. As a fan of catfish, I am appalled at your treatment of this majestic animal. I never tried to eat the barbs, so I don't know if they are poisonous. They aren't venomous either. They just hurt a little and can easily get infected.

However, even when using the club over the head technique for releasing catfish, the survival rate is still pretty good. You can’t say that about those soft wimpy trout.

One day last hear I decided to have fresh catfish for dinner, so I went down to the pond and caught a channel catfish (about a 2 footer). I clubbed it over the head and then filleted it and left what was left in the back of my utility vehicle. There was just the skeleton with the intrails head and two flaps of skin still attached. I thought it was dead. The head was not moving. About an hour or so later I went back out to dispose of the remains and decided to just throw them in my pond in the woods. Lots of things in there that would eat it. I came back after dinner to see if anything was feeding on it (it was floating when I left). I could see the gill flaps moving. At first I thought it was something feeding on it, but after looking closed, I could see it was still alive!!! I came back a couple hours later, and it was still alive, and the gill flaps were moving even more, and the flaps of skin had been pulled off. The next morning I went down, and it was gone. I’ll assume a turtle, or a raccoon got it. True story.

P.S. The sissy thing was a joke. I don’t think you are any more of a sissy than the rest these guys here.

Posted on: 2007/5/17 6:13
_________________
There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2006/11/7 8:32
From South West FL
Posts: 260
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No your right Im a complete sissy. ha ha. I actually use them as cut tarpon bait sometimes. Im no sissy, One hit and their history.

Ohio, I think what your saying sums up the elitist attitude that is plaguing our sport. Your description of "what pisses you off" the elite of the elite fly fishing attitude. Im tired of it and its hurting our sport. Great point Ohio.

Posted on: 2007/5/17 9:05


Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2006/9/14 10:34
From Southeast PA
Posts: 521
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Quote:

OhioOutdoorsman wrote:
...... Take the regs on the little J, for example. Meat fisherman won't go there because there is no meat to be had because of the regs. Almost all bait fisherman and a high percentage of gear fisherman do no practice C and R, so you basically are making the little J a playground for C and R flyfisherman. I mean do you really think going from a 24" limit with artifical lures only to baitfishing with C and R only really protects more fish? If you really needed more "protection" for the little J why not go single hook or barbless? How does allowing bait in a C and R environment make any sense at all? Are their really that many fish on the Liittle J over 24" that would be available to harvest? I mean I realize it was a political and not logical solution, but come on, it all looks very fishy, especially the last step.....

I think you are absolutely right about this. Maurice covered the history to this decision by the PFBC, and it is very hard to understand the logic, if any, behind it. I mean, even the C&R anglers were behind the trophy trout ALO regs. I'm really curious as to why the PFBC ended up with C&R and allowed bait fishing. Just trying to please everybody, with a bad result?

Concerning your 90% agreement statement, Jack's post at the top of this page really supports that. Here I am debating him, and I don't think he said one thing in that "policy statement" that I disagree with. But the details are where you can run into problems. Like the numbers and sizes of fish in a stream that makes it a good fishery to anglers of different interests. I think these are also the details that pertain to the discussion that Capt Matt and FarmerDave were having, as far as what is a good, bad, or "sustainable" fishery. It's in the eye of the beholder.

And as far as talking to animals, doesn't everybody do it? I wouldn't trust someone who doesn't.

Posted on: 2007/5/17 9:08
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Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2006/9/14 10:34
From Southeast PA
Posts: 521
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FarmerDave, I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that catfish was "alive". I would say that it was just the nervous system continuing to function on a very basic level. But it is pretty amazing, and it has kind of a horror story feel to it.

It brought back some fond memories of when I was a young kid, and we caught (and ate!) catfish from the Susquehanna. My Granny used to clean them for us, and she would take their heads and work them like puppets while chasing us around.

Posted on: 2007/5/17 9:36
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"It ain't the meat, it's the motion"


Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2006/11/7 8:32
From South West FL
Posts: 260
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Wulff-Man wrote:
as far as what is a good, bad, or "sustainable" fishery. It's in the eye of the beholder.

I disagree. My point was that we as anglers do not know what a fishery can sustain. We can have a pretty good guess but it is up to the biologists to decide that.

Posted on: 2007/5/17 9:40


Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2006/9/14 10:34
From Southeast PA
Posts: 521
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You might be right about that, CaptMatt. Is there a scientific definition of "sustainable" I wonder? In thinking about it, it could mean different things. Anything from just capable of maintaining a reproducing population to maintaining a population at the maximum carrying capacity of the stream.

Posted on: 2007/5/17 9:46
_________________
"It ain't the meat, it's the motion"


Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2006/10/26 23:01
From Ohio
Posts: 657
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Take the FFO only section I frequent the most.....Little Sandy Creek.....this is 90% a stocked fishery. There are a few wild fish but definitely not a self-sustaining wild trout sport fishery.

If we are going to have C and R regs, they should be done on threatened wild and preferable brook trout, not stocked populations. I think this is something we could all agree on. Besides, C and R fisherman are much more likely to appreciate a wild fishing experience for, in general, smaller trout. And truth be told, most meat fisherman don't give a hoot about fishing for small brook trout, so practically speaking, they wouldn't be missing anything either.

It make no sense to have Little Sandy under C and R FFO regs and then have mutiple struggling brook trout streams under general regs within a few miles of Little Sandy.

Posted on: 2007/5/17 9:48


Re: Little J No More

Joined:
2006/11/7 8:32
From South West FL
Posts: 260
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Quote:

Wulff-Man wrote:
You might be right about that, CaptMatt. Is there a scientific definition of "sustainable" I wonder? In thinking about it, it could mean different things. Anything from just capable of maintaining a reproducing population to maintaining a population at the maximum carrying capacity of the stream.


I think the definition varies from place to place. No two streams are a like and they could and should be managed differently. If that means C&R only in places so be it. If it means harvest is allowed, so be it. I was simply suggestion the importance of agencies to recognize that and MANAGE that particular fishery in the appropriate way.

Posted on: 2007/5/17 10:00



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