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Re: Is there an Update on SC?
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2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
Posts: 22113
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Quote:

troutbert wrote:
....(I'm not sure why posting a conservation message on here always becomes so difficult. What is this website's position on stream conservation?)


I don't think this website has any position unless you would point to a consensus among people who voice their opinions, which does not seem to be homogenous. The question is whether there is any justification for the hidden implication that the sale of this land to Penn State is neccessarily an anti-conservation event. It is obvious that you feel it is, but it is possible that others feel that conservation goals can be achieved through means other than the one option that you and the organizations you list support. So far, it seems to me that there is a strong lobby for transfer to Penn State. If the idea of pursuing easements and restrictions in the event of that transfer is ignored, then I think the risk of that transfer without conservation protections is increased. When this issue first arose on this Board, I alluded to the Young Woman's Creek issue that arose many years back. Sometimes when you take a position of "all or nothing" you end up with "nothing." As I said, while winning is a wonderful thing, sometimes it is better to not lose so badly.

Posted on: 2007/8/24 6:12
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I don't like spinach, and I'm glad I don't, because if I liked it I'd eat it, and I just hate it. --Clarence Darrow


Re: Is there an Update on SC?

Joined:
2006/11/2 8:50
Posts: 6022
Online
When people post conservation related topics they are consistently and incessantly attacked by one of the moderators. This has been going on for a very long time, not just on this issue.

When every conservation post is attacked by a moderator of the site, it certainly gives the impression that the site does not welcome conservation messages and has anti-conservation bias.

On this thread, I was trying to provide flyfishers with information on a conservation issue on Spring Creek, one of our most productive and popular streams. I'm very close to this issue and am tracking it closely. And I just tried to share this info with the readers. And what happens?

My posts get labelled as "misleading" by one of the moderators, who knows nothing about the Spring Creek issues!

The idea seems to be to drive away anyone daring to post conservation information. And it seems to be working. I've noticed that many who used to post such information have been driven away already. Is that what paflyfish.com wants?

Is this site going to welcome conservation posts or is going to incessantly attack, disparage, harrass, and harangue anyone who posts such messages? It's decision time!

Posted on: 2007/8/24 8:25

Edited by troutbert on 2007/8/24 8:56:59
Edited by troutbert on 2007/8/24 9:05:40


Re: Is there an Update on SC?
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2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
Posts: 22113
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I am a moderator in the sense that I help with some of the duties requiring special privileges with the software. I have never, nor will I ever use my moderating privileges to interrupt a debate or censor a discussion as long as the posts do not begin to involve vulgarity or personal attacks of an eggregious nature. My participation here, however, is not "as a moderator," but as a private invitee, just like you and I never agreed to surrender my freedom to express an opinion on a topic under discussion because I have taken on voluntary duties as a moderator.

That said, let's get to the issue. Every thread that has been open on this topic, you have posted on, making the implication that transfer of this land to PSU spells doom and gloom for Spring Creek and that the only way to save it, the only way any reader of these topics can act responsibly as a conservation-minded angler is to oppose the transfer to PSU and support the transfer only to PGC. I happen to disagree with that position. So, when I see that position promoted on a thread discussing this issue, I exercise my privilege to engage in the discussion so that others reading about the topic will have more to think about than the view you are promoting.

The question to ask yourself is who is attempting to scare away who? Do you expect that every topic you post on should have no dissent? And "dissent" is not even the right word, because I have never, ever, suggested that anyone oppose the option to transfer this land to PGC. What I have done, will always do until I am no longer welcome as a guest of the Board owner, is to make sure that all viewpoints are represented, particularly when I feel someone is implying that there is only one viewpoint that is worthy of being held.

Posted on: 2007/8/24 9:36
_________________
I don't like spinach, and I'm glad I don't, because if I liked it I'd eat it, and I just hate it. --Clarence Darrow


Re: Is there an Update on SC?

Joined:
2007/6/26 23:22
Posts: 59
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Troutbert,

On Benner Twp - Lived in a smaller Pa. Twp. for 24 years. Now living in Montgomery Co., Md. The difference - better liars and spin here in Mont. Co.

Will try to read this entire thread and then comment on your position that there is an anti-enviroment/conservation bias here. But, in our society in general, taking a strong pro-environment position on an issue is not too popular. But, you have to go back to basics on such issues which is: as a Nation we have chosen to build an Economic Monster instead of a Civilization!

On another thread there were some comments about arguing. On that, I'll just say: July 11, 1804!

Posted on: 2007/8/24 10:07


Re: Is there an Update on SC?

Joined:
2006/9/11 11:41
From bucks cty
Posts: 997
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Quote:

Cynic wrote:
Troutbert,

On Benner Twp - Lived in a smaller Pa. Twp. for 24 years. Now living in Montgomery Co., Md. The difference - better liars and spin here in Mont. Co.

Will try to read this entire thread and then comment on your position that there is an anti-enviroment/conservation bias here. But, in our society in general, taking a strong pro-environment position on an issue is not too popular. But, you have to go back to basics on such issues which is: as a Nation we have chosen to build an Economic Monster instead of a Civilization!

On another thread there were some comments about arguing. On that, I'll just say: July 11, 1804!


Did you know that Burr cheated? A couple years ago the Smithonian took the dueling pistols apart to clean them. They were supplied by Burr for the duel. Turns out they had a hidden set trigger which is a no-no in dueling.

That duel was precipitated by heated verbal battles in the press. If you think our current news sources are biased you should check out what was happening in the early 1800s. Each side had it's newspaper allies which slanted the news in thier favor including outright lies.

So when the debate over bamboo or graphite rods gets heated be careful you may need to choose your weapon. Nymphs or dry flies?

Posted on: 2007/8/24 10:22


Re: Is there an Update on SC?
Webmaster
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2006/9/8 9:35
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Troutbert and All,

Here is the long answer. Good question about what is the position of the PaFlyFish.com. Please understand my view and mission of the site before you understand the stance on this or any topic.

This website is here to help foster a shared interest in expanding our knowledge, experience and most importantly our enjoyment for fly fishing in Pennsylvania. I have always viewed this as a community for people to voice, converse, educate and debate ideas as they relate to fly fishing in Pennsylvania. I really don't encourage the debate part, but it seems to be a part of any forum.

The site has no opinion on this or any topic. As long as there are people who enjoy fly fishing in Pennsylvania and want to share in that, I will do my best to keep this site up and running. This is our site not my site on views and direction. A long time ago I considered calling it Dave Kile’s PaFlyFishing Site. The thought of posting messages just to me on the forum sounded kind of foolish.

The site is about community and I am not some tree hugger out of the 60’s, actually far from that. I like fly fishing and think Pennsylvania is a great place to do that. I was very fortunate over 25 years ago to have some great friends introduce the sport to me and feel this my way of giving back.

Outcomes from the site have really surprised me well beyond any expectations that I had back in 1995 when I started the site. To hear about people meeting up to go fishing together, setting up Jamborees, and finding new friends across the country, that is what is all about. Not anticipated, but wow what a great thing to have happen. I have heard from many people that have gone fishing with someone they knew in other part of the state and it happened because of the site. I have been in some far trodden parts of the state sitting in some bar and have heard people talking about the site after a day of fly fishing. That is pretty cool to me.

The other surprise is the wide and varying opinions about fly fishing in Pennsylvania. Not that I have my head in the sand, but some people need to chill out. I was talking about this with to Maurice yesterday. We are talking about fly fishing folks. It is not gun control, abortion rights, or school prayer. Keep it in perspective.

Do I have opinions on this or any topic? Yes, but I am probably not as passionate as most, but I am more passionate than probably anyone about the mission of the site! There are a bunch of topics I don’t care at all about and others I care a lot: Conservation-yes as much as we can all support, Stream Reports – yes bring on more, SRC/DB – you guys are ALL crazed on this topic and don’t even bother with it anymore. I try not to voice my opinions because there is plenty of that to go around.

The moderators on this site, just like you and me have different opinions. Quite frankly we don’t agree on the topics either. On a couple of issues I know for fact the moderators are 180 degrees apart.

I’ll give moderators the same voice as anyone else; some are just a lot more vocal than others. The challenge is when does a moderator become member voicing an opinion and when are they a moderator representing the interests of the site. I am not sure the answer and I apologize if you feel have been personally harassed or attacked by any of us who takes care of the forums.

No one should be personally attacked or harassed on this site. We talk about this all the time as in our moderation circles, but I think a view or topic can be challenged, but never attack the person. It is certainly a gray area for us and that will always be our biggest challenge. I ask everyone on the site to treat each other with respect and if you can’t do that then you might want to moderate yourself out of the site. Save us the hassle. Please give us your feedback and we will do our best to keep it all in check for the whole site.

Some of you may or not know this but, we have been dealing with a variety extreme issues on the site over the last month and it has made things a little edgy. I really appreciate the moderators help in keeping this site one we enjoy coming to. This site would not exist without their help. The moderators and I are open to making this a better place and process. Please tell me what you need and we will do the best to figure it out. PM if that works better for you too.

The position of the PaFlyFishing.com is to go out and enjoy fly fishing in Pennsylvania!

Dave

Posted on: 2007/8/24 11:26


Re: Is there an Update on SC?

Joined:
2007/6/26 23:22
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tabasco_joe,

Knew about that set trigger stuff from reading web articles plus Alexander shot to miss Aaron while Aaaron shot to kill Alexander.

Would never challenge anyone to a duel; instead would wait to be challenged so that I get the choice of weapons - Streamers - Chuck and Duck Rules at 100 yards!

Posted on: 2007/8/24 12:15


Re: Is there an Update on SC?

Joined:
2006/9/12 21:16
From Suburban Pittsburgh
Posts: 1191
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Excellent post Dave, that really puts things into perspective.

Posted on: 2007/8/24 12:23


Re: Is there an Update on SC?

Joined:
2006/9/15 15:26
From Schuylkill County
Posts: 609
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Quote:

The position of the PaFlyFishing.com is to go out and enjoy fly fishing in Pennsylvania!


Dave,

Why I think I'll do just that, go out and enjoy catching a few trout on Spring Creek , both Sat and Sun mornings.

John

Posted on: 2007/8/24 12:25
_________________
Once in a while
you get shown the light
in the strangest of places
if you look at it right...


Re: Is there an Update on SC?
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/13 12:42
From Altoona, PA
Posts: 2259
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Quote:
The site has no opinion on this or any topic.


I agree 100% on this. If the "web site" (Dave and the Mods) were to start taking "official" positions on issues and edit posts accordingly, the site will die.

I don't agree that debate is not the purpose of the site. I think that the debate on key topics is vital for a number of reasons. Most importantly that it provides a forum for people to hash out their arguements and come to a consensus... or not.

The activism that started here on the Big Spring Hatchery issue was extremely important to the resolution of that situation.

I'm glad that we keep bumping this issue up. And I hope that everyone reads this thread and contacts their legislator to express their opinons. Spring Creek is too important to this state's fishing hertitage and future to "hope for the best".

Posted on: 2007/8/24 14:38
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Padraic
Never challenge a cat to a staring contest


Re: Is there an Update on SC?

Joined:
2006/9/16 10:36
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I think that most would consider the Game Commission to be the better steward of the Canyon if you look at the environmental history of both PSU and the Game Commission it would be hard not to agree. It is great however to see the views of others, that is how we learn. Thanks Dave for this site, it is great!!

Posted on: 2007/8/24 14:50


Re: Is there an Update on SC?
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2006/9/8 9:35
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Pad brings an interesting idea to all this. Someone can cause all the bravado they want, pound their chest and make a lot of posts. If you are not bothering to take the time and communicate your views to your legislators, then really what is your point! Do you really want to make a difference or are you just here to join the debate club? If I made you stop and think then I have probably harassed you all enough for the day.

The weekend is here, my suggestion now is go fishing with a friend or family member and enjoy the time together!

Dave

Posted on: 2007/8/24 15:27


Re: Is there an Update on SC?

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2006/9/16 10:36
Posts: 6962
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I see the PFBC filed eminent domain for land along Spring Creek near the site of the McCoy dam, what is that all about??

Posted on: 2007/8/24 23:08


Re: Is there an Update on SC?

Joined:
2007/6/26 23:22
Posts: 59
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Troutbert,

I agree with you. My choice to manage the area in question would be the PGC. I would distrust them the least; PSU the most. With PSU in charge, there would always be pressure from different groups to develop or conduct some 'educational project’. And given the natural bias of the Educational-Government Complex – a constant effort to place unnecessary restrictions on various activities - like fishing and hunting.

Anti- environment – As long as the Forum allows one to post their position on an issue, it is not anti-environment. If they were anti-environment they could have deleted this post or told me to keep it on the Conservation Forum. Instead, it was brought here and left in the high traffic area.

But, you can take this to the Bank with respect to environmental issues: when it’s time to stand up to be counted, most will say nothing and many will jump ship. For example – a few months ago, on another site which now has closed its Forum, I followed the exchanges on a thread addressing and involving alleged sediment pollution on the LJ from some construction activity. The poster wanted to find out who was doing it. While some agreed with his position, some thought he was making a mountain out of a mole hill and should mind his own business. Reading some posts left me with the impression that the poster bringing the sediment pollution on the LJ to our attention was the guilty party.
From reading your posts, I know that you are active when it comes to protecting and restoring trout streams and the related habitat. On these efforts, I wish your allies and you total success.

Posted on: 2007/8/27 12:58


Re: Is there an Update on SC?

Joined:
2006/9/13 10:18
From LV
Posts: 7514
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Actually Jack you have continuously and sometimes with venom interupted conservation posts almost every time such a post has been made.

Posted on: 2007/8/27 19:17
_________________
It's time to stop stocking all wild trout streams no matter what Classification they are, and time to eradicate brown trout in some of our limestone streams and re-establish brookies in them.



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