Illegal stocking on the Letort???

[Dances_With_Brookies]

This Saturday will mark the second week in a row that some organization will be stocking the Letort in Letort Park. Why is the PFBC granting permission for the stocking of Class A water? The fish being stocked, originate from the Yellow Breeches Cooperative Hatchery which I believe is subsidized by the PFBC. Last week, 300-350 rainbows and palominos were stocked. This week, the stream is slated to get 200-250 more...What gives? I'm all in favor of trout derbies for kids, but why stock a Class A stream? You have Yellow Breeches, Children's Lake, Mountain Creek, Hunters Run to choose from-not to mention that some of these clubs have their own ponds.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

This is exactly what i was saying about Wyomissing Creek in Berks County and everyone thought it wasent a big deal. Lets see how the board feels about stocking on the Letort. Im with you Dances....this is just plain wrong.

 

[JackM]

Did you contact the PFBC with your concerns? I think they would be able to tell you if they granted permission and why they decided to do so. If they did not grant permission, then you will have reported a possible misuse of co-op fish and maybe can prevent the second stocking. Let us know what their response is after you receive it.

 

[Squaretail]

In the regional reports section of the PFBC website, they're actually directing people to go fish for these leftover fish.

Resource first?

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Wow, now i really think I threw up in my mouth a little. I just knew deep down it was going to last.

 

[troutbert]

As of two years ago, in 2006, the PFBC was still stocking some Class A streams. PA Trout Unlimited sent a letter to the PFBC asking that this be stopped. I don't know whether that has happened or not. If the PFBC is still stocking Class A sections themselves, it's unlikely that they will go to much effort to prevent others from doing so.

In my experience, stocking of Class A sections by local people is very common. It is done openly in the Lackawanna River at Mellow Park, in the middle of the Class A, Trophy Trout section, for example.

Here is the list of Class A sections the PFBC was stocking as of 2006. If anyone knows whether this has been changed, please let us know.

---------------------------------------------------------
“Streams With Class A Biomass Managed for Stocked Trout”

Dotters Creek, Monroe, Sec 4, 2.55 miles. Mertz Rd (T442) to confl. Middle Cr.

Fishing Creek, Clinton, Sec 13, 1.5 miles. Cedar Run to Axe Factory Hollow

Little Lehigh Creek, Lehigh, Sec 4, 4.9 miles. Spring Cr confl. to Wild Cherry Lane (T508)

Little Lehigh Creek, Lehigh, Sec 7, 2.06 miles. 4 km above Country Club Rd (T473) to Fish Hatchery Rd (SR2010)

West Licking Creek, Huntingdon, Sec 2, 4.35 miles. 2.13 km above Mt. Union Water Res. to lower boundary Tuscarora State Forest

Martins Creek, Northampton, Sec 1, 4.73 miles. Confl. E&W Br. Martins Cr to discharge Bangor Sewage plant, near unnamed tributary.

Monocacy Creek, Northampton, Sec 8, 0.99 miles. Illicks Mill Dam to Shoenersville Rd (SR3017)

Mugser Run, Columbia, Sec 2, 4.68 miles. T315 Fisherdale to mouth.

Sacony Creek, Berks, Sec 2, 3.29 miles. Bowers Rd (T616) to large spring 625 meters above SR1029 (Normal Ave)

Sacony Creek, Berks, Sec 3, 1.49 miles. Large spring 625 meters above SR1029 (Normal Ave) to SR 222 bypass (Kutztown)

Big Trout Creek, Lehigh, Sec 2, 6.4 miles. Furnace Rd (T790) in Lehigh Furnace to mouth on Lehigh River

Yellow Creek, Bedford, Sec 4, 1.66 miles. Confl. Beaver Creek to Red Bank Hill.

Long Run, Clinton, Sec 1, 4.72 miles. Confl. Pepper & Washburn Runs to sink 450 meters downstream of Auction Rd (SR2008) .

Sixmile Run, Centre, Sec 2, 3.42 miles. Dayton Dam to unnamed tributary upstream of Hutton Run.

Standing Stone Creek, Centre/Huntingdon, Sec 2, 4.65 miles. Penn Roosevelt Dam to mouth of Detweiler Run

Vanscoyoc Run, Blair, Sec 2, 4.54 miles. Decker Hollow Rd (SR4033) to mouth.

Young Womans Creek, L BR, Clinton, Sec 2, 4.42 miles, Forest road bridge to Greenlick Run

Cold Run, Schuylkill, Sec. 2, 2.17 miles. Beaver Creek to mouth.

 

[Fishidiot]

I agree, this section should NOT be stocked. Perhaps we can gain some consolation in that this section of stream is fairly short and the stockies will likely (hopefully) get yanked out pretty quick. While Letort Park borders the downstream section of the Heritage water, I doubt many fish will move up into it - more likely they'll move downstream under the Pomfret St bridge if they move at all. While the entire length of Letort is now Class A, the waters downstream of the park are standard regs and the fish will more likely be harvested. And Letort Park is in an urban area - at least it's accessible to the kids in town by foot and they will have a good crack at harvesting the stockies - I doubt the kids will have too much impact on wild fish.

 

[JackM]

troutbert, being curious about your numbers, I checked (just for instance) Fishing Creek, Clinton County. Section 13 is not on the Class A list. All upstream sections through the gorge are on the list. Would this finding be true of all of the other stream section you listed? In other words, is it the case that the PFBC does not (in these examples of yours) stock hatchery fish in the Class A sections, but rather only in adjacent sections?

 

[troutbert]

Jack,
I think if you checked all of those sections, that you would find that none of them are listed in their published Class A list.

The document I quoted, “Streams With Class A Biomass Managed for Stocked Trout”, was an unpublished PFBC document.

It somehow found it's way outside the agency. (I don't know how that happened!) And then it was widely circulated among people who follow fisheries management in PA.

Such documents, and such fishery management decisions, should be open to the public, not kept secret. IMHO.

I think the current commissioners sincerely intend to put a halt to such shenanigans, and I wish them well.

 

[JackM]

There have been a number of changes with regard to this list as best I can tell. I only checked on the streams you identified. Whether additional Class A streams are now being stocked in some part of them, I did not search.

Here are some notes I made, subject to a disclaimer on my research method/source:

Disclaimer: used current info on PFBC website for stocking details for March 2008 through February 2009, including currently published Class A list. Also, searched for information based on stream name and county supplied by troutbert.


Dotters Creek, Monroe, Sec 4, 2.55 miles. Mertz Rd (T442) to confl. Middle Cr.

-- Not on stocking list March 2008 through February 2009

Fishing Creek, Clinton, Sec 13, 1.5 miles. Cedar Run to Axe Factory Hollow

-- rainbows only in Sect. 13, rainbows and brown in section 14

Little Lehigh Creek, Lehigh, Sec 4, 4.9 miles. Spring Cr confl. to Wild Cherry Lane (T508)

Little Lehigh Creek, Lehigh, Sec 7, 2.06 miles. 4 km above Country Club Rd (T473) to Fish Hatchery Rd (SR2010)

-- also section 5 and 9 ( additional ? miles)(section 9 is on Class A list)


West Licking Creek, Huntingdon, Sec 2, 4.35 miles. 2.13 km above Mt. Union Water Res. to lower boundary Tuscarora State Forest

-- also section 3 ( additional ? miles)(West Licking not on Class A list)

Martins Creek, Northampton, Sec 1, 4.73 miles. Confl. E&W Br. Martins Cr to discharge Bangor Sewage plant, near unnamed tributary.

-- also section 3 ( additional ? miles)(Martins Creek not on Class A list)


Monocacy Creek, Northampton, Sec 8, 0.99 miles. Illicks Mill Dam to Shoenersville Rd (SR3017)

-- also sections 3, 5 & 9 ( additional ? miles)


Mugser Run, Columbia, Sec 2, 4.68 miles. T315 Fisherdale to mouth.

-- rainbow only once pre-season (Class A for brown only)


Sacony Creek, Berks, Sec 2, 3.29 miles. Bowers Rd (T616) to large spring 625 meters above SR1029 (Normal Ave)

Sacony Creek, Berks, Sec 3, 1.49 miles. Large spring 625 meters above SR1029 (Normal Ave) to SR 222 bypass (Kutztown)

-- no brookies stocked (No part of Sacony on Class A list)


Big Trout Creek, Lehigh, Sec 2, 6.4 miles. Furnace Rd (T790) in Lehigh Furnace to mouth on Lehigh River

-- no brookies stocked (Class A for browns)


Yellow Creek, Bedford, Sec 4, 1.66 miles. Confl. Beaver Creek to Red Bank Hill.

-- rainbow only in section 4, also stocking in section 5 FFO area (Class A in section 2 for browns)


Long Run, Clinton, Sec 1, 4.72 miles. Confl. Pepper & Washburn Runs to sink 450 meters downstream of Auction Rd (SR2008) .

-- brookie only (Not on Class A list, Long Run in Luzerne and Potter, though are on Class A)


Sixmile Run, Centre, Sec 2, 3.42 miles. Dayton Dam to unnamed tributary upstream of Hutton Run.

-- also section 3, brown and brooks (Not on Class A list)


Standing Stone Creek, Centre/Huntingdon, Sec 2, 4.65 miles. Penn Roosevelt Dam to mouth of Detweiler Run

-- brook only (Class A for browns)


Vanscoyoc Run, Blair, Sec 2, 4.54 miles. Decker Hollow Rd (SR4033) to mouth.

-- brown and brook (Not on Class A list)

Young Womans Creek, L BR, Clinton, Sec 2, 4.42 miles, Forest road bridge to Greenlick Run

-- also sections 1 & 3 (Not on Class A List)

Cold Run, Schuylkill, Sec. 2, 2.17 miles. Beaver Creek to mouth.

-- rainbow only once pre-season (Class A for brookies)

 

[JackM]

Oh, one more thing. Using the original list produced by troutbert, a total of 63 miles of water was counted which he showed as being stocked. There is a total of about 1,390 miles of Class A water in the Commonwealth. Even assuming that all of the identified sections are actually Class A water (as opposed to merely adjacent sections), that represents 0.045% of Class A water that has hatchery fish planted over.

 

[LehighRegular]

Well then why have a policy in place at all?

Should the PFBC bend policy in these cases?

Will it or could it lead to other groups doing this willy-nilly on other Class A streams?

The violation or bending of the Policy thing is what really gets me.
However, getting kids involved in fishing is crutial to the survival of the PFBC.

 

[JackM]

I think the official policy is that it is not permitted accept by special permission. This recognizes the possibility that in limited circumstances, the PFBC may deem it appropriate to allow it. I tend to agree that a zero-tolerance policy would be ideal, but that would fail to take into consideration all the other pressures and interests that must be withstood or accomodated in managing the resource. I only hope to see the proper perspective placed on these issues when they arise.

 

[Dances_With_Brookies]

Jack and others...
I will contact the PFBC as soon as I am done with this post. My question is this...I spoke with a friend of mine who has lived in Carlisle all of his life. Apparently, this trout derby has been going on for years. Accordingly, I would like to know why CVTU has not gotten involved and attempted to put a stop to this practice? I believe it was Squaretail who said that the fish would hopefully be harvested quickly and that the kids would not have much of an impact on the wild fish. I agree with that comment, however it is not the kids I worry about. As you all know, I fish the Letort quite frequently. My prime concern is the adults who will fish this section after the derby is over. As someone pointed out, the PFBC is directing people to fish for the leftover fish. A skilled baitfisherman would have no problem depleting this section of the stocked fish in addition to the wild fish present which number many. Now that the cat is out of the bag-yes, this section of the Letort is one of the best the stream has to offer. I would like to hear from someone who is affiliated with CVTU and be apprised of your thoughts. I think this is a real crime...

 

[troutbert]

Dances_With_Brookies wrote:

Apparently, this trout derby has been going on for years. Accordingly, I would like to know why CVTU has not gotten involved and attempted to put a stop to this practice?

I would like to hear from someone who is affiliated with CVTU and be apprised of your thoughts. I think this is a real crime...

DWB, Are you a member of Trout Unlimited? If you are a member, then talk to your TU leaders about this. If you are not a member, then I recommend taking your concerns to the PFBC only.

 

[troutbert]

JackM wrote:
Oh, one more thing. Using the original list produced by troutbert, a total of 63 miles of water was counted which he showed as being stocked. There is a total of about 1,390 miles of Class A water in the Commonwealth. Even assuming that all of the identified sections are actually Class A water (as opposed to merely adjacent sections), that represents 0.045% of Class A water that has hatchery fish planted over.

It's true that the mileage of stocked Class A waters is a small percentage. But, getting back the original point of my posting this info. As long as the PFBC themselves stocks Class A waters, they aren't in a position to enforce the rules against private parties who stock Class A waters. Because those groups could argue that the PFBC does exactly the same thing.

I don't think these groups are getting permission to stock Class A waters. They are just doing it. And the PFBC is just letting them slide because they don't want to get into a hassle.

 

[JackM]

We discussed this issue previously on the Wyomissing thread. If memory serves me, there are a couple regulations that read together suggest it is illegal to stock over stream sections "managed for wild trout" and it isn't clear if that means "Class A" sections. But, I am pretty sure there is a regulation that prohibits use of co-op fish on Class A (I'll see if I can find it), or maybe it just restricts use of co-op fish to locations specifically approved by PFBC. In either case, unless there was specific permission, then PFBC should admonish or fine those who are stocking in order to protect the integrity of their regulations. Any citizen has a legitimate right to complain about selective enforcement of regulations.

 

[JackM]

I would suggest in contacting PFBC that the following regulations be brought to their attention:


Title 58 Recreation, Part II Fish and Baot Commission

§ 57.8a. Class A wild trout streams.
It is the policy of the Commission to manage self-sustaining Class A wild trout populations as a renewable natural resource to conserve that resource and the angling it provides. Class A wild trout populations represent the best of this Commonwealth’s naturally reproducing trout fisheries. These stream sections are managed solely for the perpetuation of the wild trout fishery with no stocking.


§ 71.4. Stocking of designated waters.
It is unlawful to place fish in waters that have been designated by the Commission as catch and release, wilderness trout or wild trout management waters except with the express written consent of the Executive Director or his designee. This section does not prohibit a person from returning fish unharmed to the waters from which they were caught or taken.

§ 71.5. Improper stocking of Commission fish.
In stocking fish reared or salvaged by the Commission or a cooperative nursery recognized by the Commission, the following acts are prohibited:

(1) Failure to stock fish in waters designated by Commission personnel.

(2) Diversion of fish to be stocked to waters not open or accessible to free public fishing.

(3) Mishandling or misuse of fish being stocked in a manner so as to damage or destroy the fish.


Also, it makes sense to cite their trout management policies as available on their web page here: http://www.fish.state.pa.us/trman98.htm

In particular, (emphasis added):


MANAGEMENT OF TROUT FISHERIES IN PENNSYLVANIA WATERS
Division of Fisheries Management
Bureau of Fisheries
Pennsylvania Fish & Boat Commission
1997

I. TROUT FISHERIES IN STREAMS

A. WILD TROUT SUBPROGRAM IN STREAMS

Policy Objective

To manage self-sustaining fish populations as a renewable natural resource to protect, conserve and enhance that resource and the angling it provides.

Tactical Approach

To identify and manage exceptional wild trout populations to provide a fishery sustained by natural reproduction. Trout Population/Abundance criteria were established to provide minimum qualifying guidelines for wild trout management in 1983. These criteria were formally adopted by the Commissioners as a Statement of Commission Policy during the January 21, 1996 Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission Meeting.

Subprogram Guidelines

Analysis of the results of statewide inventory data provided the basis for development of biomass standards for establishment of wild trout fisheries. Stream sections meeting these biomass standards are considered "Class A" and managed for wild-trout-only with no stocking.

 

[2bonthewater]

there are rules, laws, regulations, policy.....all of which at one point in time may not mean a thing as long as the PFBC deems whatever they are doing is beneficial to the PFBC......

 

[JackM]

Dances_With_Brookies wrote:
.... Apparently, this trout derby has been going on for years. ...Now that the cat is out of the bag-yes, this section of the Letort is one of the best the stream has to offer.

Hmmm.... could there be a correlation between these two things?