skiltonian
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- Joined
- Jul 6, 2007
- Messages
- 601
I saw your request for custom flies on WFF and here and your asking everyone who fished stoney where the pallies are.
OK, you are obsessing about palemenos and having better flies.
Its OK we're all trout junkies, we understand. I believe the only way to statisfy your search for the perfect "unique" flies will be to start tying.
I recommend you get the beginner books and once comfortable go and get these books and tie a few of each size of every pattern:
Tying Emergers by Jim Schollmeyer / Ted Leeson
Micropatterns, Tying and Fishing the Small Fly by Darrel Martin.
Every winter I buy a large fly box and fill it by spring, generally about 3-4 hundred flies. I've done this for the last 8 years. You won't be able to accumulate lots of flies all at once but over time you realize you have to many and want to sell them just to justify tying any more. This year I'm going to start tying rods, instead.
Check with French Creek Outfitters, they have a class if you'd like to go that route. 610.933.7200.
BTW - the best fly boxes (IMO) are the waterproof C&F boxes.
I've changed over all my boxes to those and they last for ever and keep your hooks from the potential of rusting out.
OK, you are obsessing about palemenos and having better flies.
Its OK we're all trout junkies, we understand. I believe the only way to statisfy your search for the perfect "unique" flies will be to start tying.
I recommend you get the beginner books and once comfortable go and get these books and tie a few of each size of every pattern:
Tying Emergers by Jim Schollmeyer / Ted Leeson
Micropatterns, Tying and Fishing the Small Fly by Darrel Martin.
Every winter I buy a large fly box and fill it by spring, generally about 3-4 hundred flies. I've done this for the last 8 years. You won't be able to accumulate lots of flies all at once but over time you realize you have to many and want to sell them just to justify tying any more. This year I'm going to start tying rods, instead.
Check with French Creek Outfitters, they have a class if you'd like to go that route. 610.933.7200.
BTW - the best fly boxes (IMO) are the waterproof C&F boxes.
I've changed over all my boxes to those and they last for ever and keep your hooks from the potential of rusting out.
mute
Well-known member
Yea, i had a tying kit and a bunch of materials before, but was never good at it. all my flies always turnt out to be a dissapointment. The main problem probably was i wasn't following recipes, but just usin the material i had to try and tie whatever i could resemble. Im thinking of spending $100-$150 for another kit and materials this Christmas and try it again. Would definitely be nice to be able to tie what i need and save the money on it too.
MattBoyer
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- Sep 10, 2006
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- 1,515
You'd be a lucky man to find a living pally after June, unless it was stocked in October. They aren't the best color for survival, you know. Also, maybe it's just me, but pallies seem to kype up rather heartily, sometimes to the point of looking deformed. Anybody else notice this?
Boyer
FarmerDave
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- Dec 13, 2006
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- 14,169
Mute,
I'm not nearly as experienced at tying as most of the guys here, but I have also been bitten by that bug (pun intended). However, i would like to give the following advice. Also, I don't know how experienced you are at tying, so don't take this advice as in insult. It is just general advice for anyone who wants to try it.
In my opinion, the tying kits are not the way to go.
First of all, you end up paying for a lot of stuff you will never use.
Secondly, I feel that the materials and tools that you get with kits are typically low quality or might not be what you end up liking.
I bought a lower price kit. It did get me started, but if I had it to do all over again, I wouldn't have bought the kit. I still have some materials that came it, and probably will never use them, and I have replaced every tool that cam with it.
Here is what i would do if i were starting out all over again in this order.
1. Buy a tying book.
2. Buy a decent vice. You don't have to go crazy and spend big bucks. A good one can probably be had for under 50 bucks. Mine cost me about 20 from Cabela's but it was quite a few years ago. Nothing fancy, and doesn't rotate, but has two different size heads.
2b. Also purchase a few tools, like a couple bobbins (and get ones with ceramic insert), and a whip finisher, hackle pliers. These are just suggestions. Some people recommend learning the whip finish by hand first, but I can't say it made it any easier.
3. Then i would pick out a few simple flies from that book that i want to try first. For example... Wooly Buggers, pheasant tail or hairs ear, and adams. Then I would buy only what I need for just those few patterns. And don't forget the head cement. And by the way, Sally Hanson's Hard as Nails nail pollish works fine and cost less.
4. Find a friend who already ties and have him help you out a little bit. In fact, you might want to look at this as the first step. That friend more than likely will be glad to provide what you need and help you tie a few to see if you will enjoy it. I know i would. That is what a friend did for me. You will also get an idea of what tools you need and maybe what tools you like or dislike. Then go buy the stuff. Once you learn just a couple basics, you will be bit.
Once you get good at it, go ahead and buy a fancy vice. The less expensive one will make a nice backup.
I'm not nearly as experienced at tying as most of the guys here, but I have also been bitten by that bug (pun intended). However, i would like to give the following advice. Also, I don't know how experienced you are at tying, so don't take this advice as in insult. It is just general advice for anyone who wants to try it.
In my opinion, the tying kits are not the way to go.
First of all, you end up paying for a lot of stuff you will never use.
Secondly, I feel that the materials and tools that you get with kits are typically low quality or might not be what you end up liking.
I bought a lower price kit. It did get me started, but if I had it to do all over again, I wouldn't have bought the kit. I still have some materials that came it, and probably will never use them, and I have replaced every tool that cam with it.
Here is what i would do if i were starting out all over again in this order.
1. Buy a tying book.
2. Buy a decent vice. You don't have to go crazy and spend big bucks. A good one can probably be had for under 50 bucks. Mine cost me about 20 from Cabela's but it was quite a few years ago. Nothing fancy, and doesn't rotate, but has two different size heads.
2b. Also purchase a few tools, like a couple bobbins (and get ones with ceramic insert), and a whip finisher, hackle pliers. These are just suggestions. Some people recommend learning the whip finish by hand first, but I can't say it made it any easier.
3. Then i would pick out a few simple flies from that book that i want to try first. For example... Wooly Buggers, pheasant tail or hairs ear, and adams. Then I would buy only what I need for just those few patterns. And don't forget the head cement. And by the way, Sally Hanson's Hard as Nails nail pollish works fine and cost less.
4. Find a friend who already ties and have him help you out a little bit. In fact, you might want to look at this as the first step. That friend more than likely will be glad to provide what you need and help you tie a few to see if you will enjoy it. I know i would. That is what a friend did for me. You will also get an idea of what tools you need and maybe what tools you like or dislike. Then go buy the stuff. Once you learn just a couple basics, you will be bit.
Once you get good at it, go ahead and buy a fancy vice. The less expensive one will make a nice backup.
MKern
Active member
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- Sep 11, 2006
- Messages
- 3,822
Second not buying a kit. I added up the price for everything ain a kit he was set on, and he would have only saved $5-7. Plus that stuff in really poor quality and not in vast quantity. For instance every kit includes peacock. But most of the time is is and 1/8 ounce, but in a shop most of the time it is packaged in 1/4 and 1/2 ounce packages. So thinking of this, the kit actually cost more.
Second learning from a friend -- saves on crappy flies.
Aside- I have only cuaght 1 big golden in the past few years, and he was vibrant orange and not that glossy pale yellw that most are. Most beautiful stocked fish I ever caught.
Second learning from a friend -- saves on crappy flies.
Aside- I have only cuaght 1 big golden in the past few years, and he was vibrant orange and not that glossy pale yellw that most are. Most beautiful stocked fish I ever caught.
G
Giventoflyfish
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- Aug 13, 2007
- Messages
- 168
Someone in the tread mention French Creek Outfitters for fly tying classes. I'm waiting for a call back sometime on when the next classes are. Has anyone attended class there and if so, do you recommend it?
Padraic
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- Sep 13, 2006
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I'd like to "third" the idea of not getting a kit. Unless you are referring to a set of tools.
The materials you get in a kit are usually very poor quality. Instead of using these, look over your flyboxes and pick your favorite half dozen flies. Get the materials for those and master tying them. That way, you'll be able to replace your favorites more easily and with fewer trips to the flyshop.
I'll qualify that with a little more advice. Dry fly hackle is very expensive. So if you can modify your list to eliminate dry flies, or to use just one color, than you'll save money there. I usually only carry a few sizes of my favorite patterns. So I don't buy capes. I get the sized packs of dry fly hackle. Your flyshop should have a couple varieties of these. You'll eliminate a lot of "waste" by not buying all the feathers you won't use.
Nymphs, wet flies and streamers are (generally speaking) easier to tye than dries. You may want to start with these.
Take classes with a local TU chapter, sportsman's group or at a flyshop. It's a great way to get up the learning curve in a hurry. The flyshop I took lessons from (Clouser's in Middletown) didn't charge for the lessons... although he made out on all of us buying a mountain of materials!
The materials you get in a kit are usually very poor quality. Instead of using these, look over your flyboxes and pick your favorite half dozen flies. Get the materials for those and master tying them. That way, you'll be able to replace your favorites more easily and with fewer trips to the flyshop.
I'll qualify that with a little more advice. Dry fly hackle is very expensive. So if you can modify your list to eliminate dry flies, or to use just one color, than you'll save money there. I usually only carry a few sizes of my favorite patterns. So I don't buy capes. I get the sized packs of dry fly hackle. Your flyshop should have a couple varieties of these. You'll eliminate a lot of "waste" by not buying all the feathers you won't use.
Nymphs, wet flies and streamers are (generally speaking) easier to tye than dries. You may want to start with these.
Take classes with a local TU chapter, sportsman's group or at a flyshop. It's a great way to get up the learning curve in a hurry. The flyshop I took lessons from (Clouser's in Middletown) didn't charge for the lessons... although he made out on all of us buying a mountain of materials!
jayL
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- Jan 2, 2007
- Messages
- 9,947
Personally, I learned to tie from the internet, the Orvis fly tying manual, and this forum. Then again, I had nothing better to do at the time. It was a long winter with no night classes, and I was stuck back in berks county with nothing to do.
I'm sure classes are a good idea if you have the money, but definitely not necessary. This is especially true if you have the time to learn.
I will say that I still tie with my cabela's tool kit. I plan on upgrading the tools, as I'm disappointed with a few of them. The scissors, the bobbin, and the hackle pliers mainly. Sadly, these are the most important tools from the kit. The vice is servicable, but could use upgrade.
Mute,
I'd be willing to bet that you haven't taken a good look at many personal hand tied flies from your fellow fishermen. They often don't look as good as the professional flies that you can buy, but they work just as well. If you look at the fly swap pages that Jack hosts, you'll see many flies that have that amateur-tied look to them (The word 'amateur' purely in the context that the tyers aren't professional.) Mine included, of course. There are a few pro-quality flies, but then again, a few of them are tied by pros!
Often times these flies are more effective and more durable... They were tied by fisherman from the same area as you!
I will say that my flies rarely look orvis quality, yet I have never had to buy any more again. My flies are just as effective, and I fish them with confidence. Give it some practice, and keep realistic standards, and you'll be more than satisfied.
I'm sure classes are a good idea if you have the money, but definitely not necessary. This is especially true if you have the time to learn.
I will say that I still tie with my cabela's tool kit. I plan on upgrading the tools, as I'm disappointed with a few of them. The scissors, the bobbin, and the hackle pliers mainly. Sadly, these are the most important tools from the kit. The vice is servicable, but could use upgrade.
Mute,
I'd be willing to bet that you haven't taken a good look at many personal hand tied flies from your fellow fishermen. They often don't look as good as the professional flies that you can buy, but they work just as well. If you look at the fly swap pages that Jack hosts, you'll see many flies that have that amateur-tied look to them (The word 'amateur' purely in the context that the tyers aren't professional.) Mine included, of course. There are a few pro-quality flies, but then again, a few of them are tied by pros!
Often times these flies are more effective and more durable... They were tied by fisherman from the same area as you!
I will say that my flies rarely look orvis quality, yet I have never had to buy any more again. My flies are just as effective, and I fish them with confidence. Give it some practice, and keep realistic standards, and you'll be more than satisfied.
J
JeffK
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2006
- Messages
- 1,287
One more just say no to kits.
Get an OK vise - don't need to spend a ton of bucks. I like a pedestal base.
Get good scissors. I got mine from a sewing shop. I got a good pair of needlework scissors for "rough" work (i.e. cutting fur and chenille) and a pair of bow spring ones for the fine work (like cutting off the thread close in), which I just love. Don't cut wire or metal tinsel with scissors - bend it back and forth until it breaks. You are looking for fine points. Look at scissors before you buy - the points are all cut slightly different and some are better than others.
Poor materials make crappy flies. However, more important to me poor materials are difficult to tie with. Nothing builds frustration quicker than struggling with bad materials. The best thing you can do is learn what good material material looks like. Ask a guy in a flyshop, read, ask a friend - but learn to know what you want to buy.
Start with one or two simple patterns. Wooly buggers and pheasant tails are good places to start - simple and they work. However, pick what you like.
Tie a dozen of each pattern. The first one will look miserable, but each one will look better. Repetition is the best way to learn. Each fly you tie will be better than the last one and you will do it more efficiently each time. You will develop your own style.
Good luck.
Get an OK vise - don't need to spend a ton of bucks. I like a pedestal base.
Get good scissors. I got mine from a sewing shop. I got a good pair of needlework scissors for "rough" work (i.e. cutting fur and chenille) and a pair of bow spring ones for the fine work (like cutting off the thread close in), which I just love. Don't cut wire or metal tinsel with scissors - bend it back and forth until it breaks. You are looking for fine points. Look at scissors before you buy - the points are all cut slightly different and some are better than others.
Poor materials make crappy flies. However, more important to me poor materials are difficult to tie with. Nothing builds frustration quicker than struggling with bad materials. The best thing you can do is learn what good material material looks like. Ask a guy in a flyshop, read, ask a friend - but learn to know what you want to buy.
Start with one or two simple patterns. Wooly buggers and pheasant tails are good places to start - simple and they work. However, pick what you like.
Tie a dozen of each pattern. The first one will look miserable, but each one will look better. Repetition is the best way to learn. Each fly you tie will be better than the last one and you will do it more efficiently each time. You will develop your own style.
Good luck.
M
mattmask
Member
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2007
- Messages
- 62
I got tired of waiting for FCO to call me back so I just bought a tool kit and materials for a simple zebra midge fly. Once I felt comfortable tying that pattern I bought materials for more difficult patterns than the zebra midge like hare's ear nymph. I bought the Orvis fly tying book and now I'm actually pretty good at tying and can tie everything from a beetle to a stimulator, not saying a stimulator is difficult, its just what level I'm at right now.
Also Mute, I didn't mind the questions about the pallies.
Also Mute, I didn't mind the questions about the pallies.
tomgamber
Well-known member
No on the kit with materials..but a kit that includes a sufficient vise and tools together is a good idea. Cabela's (and some others too i'm sure) sells
vice and tool sets that will give you what you need for a while. Buy the materials you need for the patterns you want and you won't use them all so they carry over as ingredients for other patterns as well.
Rent, borrow from he library, buy a dvd that shows you some of the patterns that you want and tie-rewind-tie-rewind...I found one that had an Adams, hare's ear, bugger, humpy and something else that gave the basis for tying just about anything.
classes are good but if you can just hook up with someone who is even a decent tyer you'll be set.
vice and tool sets that will give you what you need for a while. Buy the materials you need for the patterns you want and you won't use them all so they carry over as ingredients for other patterns as well.
Rent, borrow from he library, buy a dvd that shows you some of the patterns that you want and tie-rewind-tie-rewind...I found one that had an Adams, hare's ear, bugger, humpy and something else that gave the basis for tying just about anything.
classes are good but if you can just hook up with someone who is even a decent tyer you'll be set.
Padraic
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- Sep 13, 2006
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Here are some great tying tutorials
http://www.troutflies.com/tutorials/
Oh, and of course the only difference between an adams and any other catskill pattern you'd want to tye would be the color of the materials.
As I said earlier, you don't neccessarily have to pay for lessons. The flyshop I took mine at didn't charge for the lessons themselves. The TU Chapter I belong to ran lessons a few years ago, the tution covered the materials we gave the students.
http://www.troutflies.com/tutorials/
Oh, and of course the only difference between an adams and any other catskill pattern you'd want to tye would be the color of the materials.
As I said earlier, you don't neccessarily have to pay for lessons. The flyshop I took mine at didn't charge for the lessons themselves. The TU Chapter I belong to ran lessons a few years ago, the tution covered the materials we gave the students.
MKern
Active member
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- Sep 11, 2006
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I know that most are saying to start with budders and PT's, but my advise is contrary to this.
I have all beginner tyers that come to me learn the San Juan Worm first (because it is only 1 material and starts the basics of winding thread and keeping materials on the top side of the hook) and green weenies (for similar reasons, plus it catches fish; which should make a beginner tyer feels good).
Dubbing is a hard thing to learn and master, so if you want dubbed flies do bushy things like hare's ears.
Probably the most important advise I can give you...
Be patient and take your time. It's not a race. Tying should be a leasure activity and not for a timed event (at least when your starting out).
I have all beginner tyers that come to me learn the San Juan Worm first (because it is only 1 material and starts the basics of winding thread and keeping materials on the top side of the hook) and green weenies (for similar reasons, plus it catches fish; which should make a beginner tyer feels good).
Dubbing is a hard thing to learn and master, so if you want dubbed flies do bushy things like hare's ears.
Probably the most important advise I can give you...
Be patient and take your time. It's not a race. Tying should be a leasure activity and not for a timed event (at least when your starting out).
shipnfish2006
Member
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- May 10, 2007
- Messages
- 579
I also agree with no kit except for the vise and tools.
I think FarmerDave nailed it along with afishinado in the tying forum. I think the biggest thing that helped me along in learning how to tie was buying a book that showed the basics of tying and different styles and what not. Along with tips for trickier methods. I also bought another book that rated patterns on their difficulty and I found it to be a challenge to work my way up the different levels until I finally was able to put together a fly rated at the highest level. I think following that helped to build my confidence by starting simple and working from there. You might want a DVD depending on what you prefer. I personally like to see the step by step pictures. I bought my books from stores such as borders or barnes and noble.
Also don't get frustrated with your first couple of ties. Nobody is perfect right away. It takes practice, practice, practice. I wish I had pictures of my first 50 or so flies... ouch they were ugly.
I think FarmerDave nailed it along with afishinado in the tying forum. I think the biggest thing that helped me along in learning how to tie was buying a book that showed the basics of tying and different styles and what not. Along with tips for trickier methods. I also bought another book that rated patterns on their difficulty and I found it to be a challenge to work my way up the different levels until I finally was able to put together a fly rated at the highest level. I think following that helped to build my confidence by starting simple and working from there. You might want a DVD depending on what you prefer. I personally like to see the step by step pictures. I bought my books from stores such as borders or barnes and noble.
Also don't get frustrated with your first couple of ties. Nobody is perfect right away. It takes practice, practice, practice. I wish I had pictures of my first 50 or so flies... ouch they were ugly.
MattM
Member
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- Oct 18, 2006
- Messages
- 156
From my first kit I have all my materials left and use none of the tools. Don't waste your money!
thedude1534
Member
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2007
- Messages
- 191
I think you'll quickly find that when you start tying, you can tie 5-10 simple, classic patterns and absolutely slay fish all year long (I'm talking wild trout here). Plus you'll save tons of money, good luck.
BTW, you fish valley right? tie some egg patterns, walts worms, san juan worms, zebra midges, scuds, surface midges (tan caddis and black foam beetle for spring and summer), and you will have 8 flies that take less than 10 min (most less than 5) to tie that will catch you those wild brownies all year long.
BTW, you fish valley right? tie some egg patterns, walts worms, san juan worms, zebra midges, scuds, surface midges (tan caddis and black foam beetle for spring and summer), and you will have 8 flies that take less than 10 min (most less than 5) to tie that will catch you those wild brownies all year long.
