it has currently come to my attention that one of my unknown streams is up to become a class a stream. if this happens i fear the worst for all the fantastic fish in this stream. what can i do? how can one advocate to get the stream moved from a possible class a wild trout stream to a c&r ffo? both add more anglers but at least the latter has no harvest and bait is not allowed. what can I do!?

You could approach the PFBC about the regulations, but I wouldn't be too optimistic. If the land is privately owned, you can approach landowners about helping pressure the PFBC or assist them in placing signage stating that trespassing is not allowed unless for fishing on a C & R basis only. Probably the best way to protect it is to ask the moderators to delete this thread and then never mention it again. Very few anglers consult the Class A lists in my estimation.

First of all it is either Class A or it isn't, the regulations have no bearing on the Class A listing. Class A is a listing that is very valuable to have, for instance a Class A stream automatically gets an upgrade to either HQ or EV status, these are susposed to protect existing uses.
IMHO it is far better for a stream to get these classifications then any other because it raises the bar so to speak as to permitting on the stream. And with the new ruling that permits have to consider the chapter 93 regulations as well as Chapter 102 regs, it means big improvements are in store for water quality. So ask if you want to for C & R regs, but if it is Class A leave it. TU just argued in favor of a couple of streams that have been left off the Class A list for a number of years because of political pressure brought to bare and pressure from at least 3 polluters that brought pressure to bare at PFBC. To their credit PFBC said they would be listed as Class A.
One other thing don't confuse fishing regulations with DEP Status or the Class A status, they are all different things.

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What he said...in additon, FFO areas are stocked, which brings MORE pressure. And if it is class A it shouldn't be stocked.

wow stonefly i think you missed the very point of the post. the stream could have a class a listing. in fact it could have been class a years ago. the stream has just never been evaluated to give such a designation. the stream is currently on EV status already. so water quailty improvents are not an issue. im not confuse stream status or classifications. im just worried simpily about pressure and harvest. currently no one fishes the stream except me and a few other anglers. it is an extremely small stream in a remote area. if it gets the class a more people will know about it. it it gets c&r more people will also know about it. but at least they cant keep them. your wrong to think that stream status and regs dont have anything to do with one another. look up basic stream regs for a class a stream harvest is permitted. they maybe 2 differnt things but can result in wild trout harvest.

y would it need to be stocked with c&r ffo regs? who said thats a must?

It could be worse. At least with class A designation the watershed gets some protection that might come in handy. And, according to the PFBC wild trout survey, few people fish for them anyway and nearly 95% practice C&R. So it may not be all that bad.

I understand where you’re coming from though. There’s a little brookie run next to my camp that’s mostly on public land with easy access and ample parking. But nobody ever fishes it because its unlisted by the PFBC. I worry somebody will find it and my secret spot will be gone. But I also run the risk of having no sympathizers should a more serious threat arise. Kind of like driving without insurance, registration or inspection. It’s a real dilemma.

thank you at least you understand my position. i just dont know what to do. i have fished so many brookie streams throughout the state, and i belive for as small as it is this is the best. just wanted some advice on what everyone thinks is best!

C&R FFO is a Regulation evolved from DH FFO which was designed to extend the use of stocked fish on certain sections of streams. (DHFFO was not designed as a management tool for the protection of wild fish). Also, it was stated a couple of years ago that there would be no additons to the DHFFO areas because it was a "social" regulation with exclusionary undertones. Therefor, there will likely be no more FFO areas added C&R or otherwise.

How would ALL TACKLE C&R suit you?

If it were my secret stream I would rather not have any black & white signs that say FISH HERE.

I'd leave it alone and see how the following years pan out. If it is truely class A, Chances are that the harvest minded folks wount bother with it because it is not stocked. And if some harvest occurs...(brace yourself) the populations should be able to support some harvest. If conditions or behavior warrant action, take it.

Sometimes the best thing to do is nothing at all.

Maurice

i was going to reply to the last post but im tied. it seems everything on here leads to a debate. i didnt want to argue stream classifications and designations, water quailty issues or how dhffo has evolved to c&rffo. i was asking what would be best for a small stream with small trout. you may be right that doing nothing is the best course of action. being that the stream is remote i doubt that anyone would see "fish here signs" . but if we all take that course of action would anything get done?

The catch 22 is that because there are so few areas that are C & R in PA, remember PFBC doesn't place regulations on streams to manage populations, that C & R will bring added pressure. This is something these days that landowners aren't real enamored with because it means more people on the stream. The upside is that they do like C & R in most cases.

Ok since I don't know what stream you are talking about I don't know the DEP designation. However, what I said is true, just because a stream has wild trout in it doesn't mean it is either HQ or EV. DEP makes those decisions independently from PFBC. However, if a stream is found to have a Class A wild trout population it is automatically bumped up to either HQ or EV, but it must be evaluated by DEP for other life forms and water quality. Heck until recently Perkiomen Creek was listed as Class A and Trout Stocking Fishery. Been that way for years.

I will give comments from my NJ perspective.

Listing to Class A (TP in NJ) doesn't seem to affect the fisheries. More people search out the wild trout streams than you may think, but they find them whether they are listed or not. They are a crazy and dedicated bunch. Also, with so many wild trout streams even in NJ the pressure gets spread around. Most wild fish guys do not keep any fish and use barbless hooks, so the listing doesn't really matter all that much to the wild trout fanatics. The wild trout guys I know are deadly and have those 30 to 80 fish days fairly commonly and the streams still seem to have the same fish in them year after year (much to my surprise).

As far as the bait or catch and cook guys, they don't take the time and effort to bother with small wild trout streams. In NJ those small streams are under general regulations except for about 35 that are under special regulations. Every year there are huge debates about how to protect the wild trout streams not under special regulations. However, they seem to do fine as far as fishing pressure goes since meat hunters with a taste for small brookies seem to be a dying breed.

Development is a whole nother issue. I know 10 times as many wild trout streams that have fallen to development than have fallen to overfishing. We all like to think we have our private spots (which may be fished by more wild trout nuts than you think), but the more watch lists a stream is on and the more people that are aware of the trout population, the more development will be watched with a close eye.

I give 2 to 4 watershed tours a year and have pointed out many small "secret" wild trout streams to 100's of people. I do not see any crowding or poorer fishing on these streams, but I have seen a big jump in awareness and support for fertilizer restrictions, riparian plantings, minimizing lawn watering etc that in the long run help out a lot more IMHO.

it is just cause for concern though. there are not many wild trout streams in this neck of the woods. much easier for pressure to be concentrated

Here's another idea. Take the time to talk to each of the landowners and point out that they are fortunate to live on a stream that is NOT stocked. Point out the benefits of reduced trash, no broken fences, etc. Try to elicit their help in passing on this information to "visitors". Eventually, the landowners will do the job for you.

While my stream is not a secret stream, and in fact, I am planning a major up date on it to be published in the near futrue, nevertheless it is is hardly fished at all by other than locals. I have "trained" the owners to tell visitors that "this stream hasn't been stocked in over 20 years." Usually the visitor gets back into the car and leaves. There are NO signs whatsoever posted on this stream. A few years ago one of the properties changed hands and I shamed the landowner into taking his 'posted' sign down by pointing out that he was the ONLY landowner on the stream to do it.

Jack is right...probably the worst thing you can do is to have it made into a regulated stream. If it aint broke, don't fix it! 20 C&R fishermen will kill more trout than 1 local fishing for the pan in a given day.

And even the local harvesters numbers are declining. Their offspring seem more interested in playing computer games than getting off their behinds and working on learning a difficult skill like fishing.

It's very possible that in time the number of fishermen will match the number of available trout. The whole process could be expedited by reducing or eliminating stocking altogether.

Relax and enjoy your stream.