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Re: C&R - Extended Trout Season

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2006/9/9 11:22
From New Castle, PA
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Quote:

krayfish:

"fictional spring creek #1" is mostly inhabited by wild fish. No additional stocking is required but small numbers may be stocked to enhance the 'catching' by anglers. The limit is reduced to 1 fish per day over 12". The water is open from April 1st to Oct 15th. It is completely closed to fishing from Oct 15th to April 1st to permit undisturbed spawning / hatch out.



Sorry this scenario and suggested regs just makes no sense. First, reducing the limit to one is practically c&r regs so use by those wishing to harvest is going to plummit. Why even waster time, effort, money, and fish by stocking if there's a decent wild population and (soon to be) very little use by the catch and keep crowd?. Secondly, with a 12" minimum I think you would place most of the remaining harvest pressure on the wild population as most stocked fish are not 12" fish. As for closing spawning season, I'm unconvinced this is needed anyware.

The scenario of a stocked creek with decent wild pops is exactly what most would like to see removed from stocking altogether. Just remove these streams from the atw's and let them fall into obscurity as much as possible. No need to continue wasting stocked fish on them or create new regs. If an opening day angler asks the pafbc why they quit stocking the would be told that the stream has plenty of fish without stocking and then also be told where the stocked fish were reallocated.

The simplest way to adjust the stocking program is to create a new base line on what gets stocked and what doesn't. Ideally, this base line would be reliant on the level of wild populations and perhaps water quality. "Social" concerns would not be a factor.


Kev

Posted on: 12/23 16:44


Re: C&R - Extended Trout Season

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Quote:

krayfish wrote:

"fictional spring creek #1" is mostly inhabited by wild fish. No additional stocking is required but small numbers may be stocked to enhance the 'catching' by anglers. The limit is reduced to 1 fish per day over 12". The water is open from April 1st to Oct 15th. It is completely closed to fishing from Oct 15th to April 1st to permit undisturbed spawning / hatch out.


Ironically, this was pretty much "NON-fictional Spring Creek" in central PA until the late 70's... except fish limits were 3 fish I believe and fishing was permitted until the end of the year.

Back then, Spring Creek was stocked with fish until high-levels of pollutants pulled the stream from the ATW list. BEST thing that ever happened... it became the poster stream for NOT stocking over wild trout water at all, ever.

Posted on: 12/23 17:21
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Re: C&R - Extended Trout Season

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Quote:

greenghost wrote:
Quote:

krayfish wrote:

"fictional spring creek #1" is mostly inhabited by wild fish. No additional stocking is required but small numbers may be stocked to enhance the 'catching' by anglers. The limit is reduced to 1 fish per day over 12". The water is open from April 1st to Oct 15th. It is completely closed to fishing from Oct 15th to April 1st to permit undisturbed spawning / hatch out.


Ironically, this was pretty much "NON-fictional Spring Creek" in central PA until the late 70's... except fish limits were 3 fish I believe and fishing was permitted until the end of the year.

Back then, Spring Creek was stocked with fish until high-levels of pollutants pulled the stream from the ATW list. BEST thing that ever happened... it became the poster stream for NOT stocking over wild trout water at all, ever.


Back when the non-fictional Spring Creek was stocked, the limit was the state-wide regs, which were 8 trout per day during the regular season, and 3 per day during the extended season.


Posted on: 12/23 17:39


Re: C&R - Extended Trout Season

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Kev,

Said fictional stream with some wild fish population may need stocked due to high angler usage. The stockers get picked off quicker that the stream born fish will.


Ghost,

You wrote " BEST thing that ever happened... it became the poster stream for NOT stocking over wild trout water at all, ever."....... Really? Was it a poster stream for not stocking or a poster stream for no harvest'? Maybe it's a poster stream for pollution. If you think for one second that stream doesn't get a steady flow of hatchery escapees, you'd be kidding yourself. It also gets supplemented during times of flooding.

My take on it is that closing the streams to harvest was the biggest factor in the increased wild fish numbers but I'm not a biologist. Valley and Spring reflect what I'm saying. If anyone has documentation supporting their position, post it. otherwise, we are simply posting our feelings and opinions.

If it weren't for stocking, no letort browns, no little j and on and on. Unless I have zero reading comprehension, which is possible, I don't recall reading anything documenting that tossing stocker bronot h into a wild brown stream destroys it. I think Mike had previously posted that the wild fish usually inhabit different water/lies from the stockers. The pellet fed fish don't have the natural instincts and typically don't survive all that long. They make perfect targets for guys looking to limit out on a heavily pressured stream containing a wild fish population.

My position on not harvesting fish is a completely selfish one. I enjoy fishing and want my nephews (and the next generation) to be able to experience the same or better fishing than I did.

Posted on: 12/23 21:42

Edited by krayfish on 2013/12/23 22:41:43
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Re: C&R - Extended Trout Season

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Hopback and anyone else I may have offended:
I made no mention of spinning gear or spin fishing in my post. I was poking fun at a stereotype…… a stereotype that can carry any type of fishing gear. Maybe you would like to fish with me first before you jump to conclusions and blast me on the net that I am a bad person and a bad representative of the sport?
This forum seemed like a place where everybody had a sense of humor but it seems like maybe I struck a nerve? It’s all in good fun and I never type anything with malicious intent.

Posted on: 12/23 22:37
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Re: C&R - Extended Trout Season

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2006/9/9 11:22
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Quote:

krayfish wrote:
Kev,

Said fictional stream with some wild fish population may need stocked due to high angler usage. The stockers get picked off quicker that the stream born fish will.


G


Yeah but who the heck is going to go to a particular stream so that they can catch and keep only one trout? It seems rather pointless. Just put C&R regs on the stream if we're going to go that far.

Posted on: 12/24 5:54


Re: C&R - Extended Trout Season
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Quote:

PennKev wrote:
Quote:

krayfish wrote:
Kev,

Said fictional stream with some wild fish population may need stocked due to high angler usage. The stockers get picked off quicker that the stream born fish will.


G


Yeah but who the heck is going to go to a particular stream so that they can catch and keep only one trout? It seems rather pointless. Just put C&R regs on the stream if we're going to go that far.


Kev, I agree with that in premise but sometimes a weird balance is struck to compromise. Remember the YMC compromise? Stream long held Class A status, Lost a little ground with Biomass and felt heavy pressure to stock with Co-op fish from a largely catch and keep club. Resulting management was to allow them to stock it but make it C&R.

Seemed stupid at the time and I have not fished it recently (over the past 5 years) but I am confident that the non-celebratory regs change on both sides probably had little impact on the fishery.

Maybe someone more familiar with recent events can comment on YWC.

Posted on: 12/24 9:17
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Re: C&R - Extended Trout Season
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Fictional Stream #3.

Southwest PA mountain freestone.

Native Brookies in higher elevations, but not in the final 3 miles of run to the receiving river. Yet this lower portion of the stream, while relatively infertile like the upper reaches, remains cool to trout until early to mid July every year. To be sure, there are likely some wild trout in this lower section during some part of the year, but not enough to be considered a recreational fishery.

Add to this the wide-open access (most on public land), the beauty of the surroundings, and the lack of other similar waters available to the surrounding community, and you have a quality wild trout stream (at least in the upper reaches) that probably could be stocked in the lower reaches without significant harm. And perhaps it probably should be stocked in the lower reaches by the agency charged with trying to conserve a resource while assuring adequate recreational opportunities to the public.

Posted on: 12/24 9:44
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Re: C&R - Extended Trout Season
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Quote:

JackM wrote:
Fictional Stream #3.

Southwest PA mountain freestone.

Native Brookies in higher elevations, but not in the final 3 miles of run to the receiving river. Yet this lower portion of the stream, while relatively infertile like the upper reaches, remains cool to trout until early to mid July every year. To be sure, there are likely some wild trout in this lower section during some part of the year, but not enough to be considered a recreational fishery.

Add to this the wide-open access (most on public land), the beauty of the surroundings, and the lack of other similar waters available to the surrounding community, and you have a quality wild trout stream (at least in the upper reaches) that probably could be stocked in the lower reaches without significant harm. And perhaps it probably should be stocked in the lower reaches by the agency charged with trying to conserve a resource while assuring adequate recreational opportunities to the public.


Jack,

While I agree in theory that this sounds reasonable. It is a chicken and the egg scenario. Are the brook trout relegated to the upper portion because of prior stockings or in spite of them? And would't the stocking of other species (brown trout and rainbows) tend to push the brook trout further into the headwaters with resulting genetic propensity for smaller fish size while creating a wild fishery in the intermediate length of stream of the introduced species?

Posted on: 12/24 9:53
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Re: C&R - Extended Trout Season
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I would surmise that the lack of a viable wild trout fishery in lower reaches is the result of thermal inhospitability. Will there be encroachment by stocked specimens? I would say some, but I wonder how significant the encroachment would be when weighed against the excellent stocked-trout fishery that has been created in the downstream section.

Posted on: 12/24 10:03
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Re: C&R - Extended Trout Season

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Jack,

If the demand for recreational use isn't there, why stock? Project to improve cover, water quality and let mother nature handle the rest. Option 'b', plant koi in it.

Posted on: 12/24 10:04
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Re: C&R - Extended Trout Season
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My scenario is that there is a significant demand for the recreational opportunity in the lower reaches.

And along with this, it isn't really fair to anglers who wish to harvest to be relegated either to stocked trout or worse yet ugly streams and stocked trout.

The legal limit is rarely reached. PFBC probably has fairly accurate statistics. If the limit is 5, very few anglers are capable of limiting out. And there are not that many anglers harvest 50 trout a year. Maybe you can give some examples, but I suggest these are rare examples. As I said, PFBC knows these estimates. Whether they are public or not I do not know.

Posted on: 12/24 10:05
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Re: C&R - Extended Trout Season

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Quote:

JackM wrote:
Fictional Stream #3.

Southwest PA mountain freestone.

Native Brookies in higher elevations, but not in the final 3 miles of run to the receiving river. Yet this lower portion of the stream, while relatively infertile like the upper reaches, remains cool to trout until early to mid July every year. To be sure, there are likely some wild trout in this lower section during some part of the year, but not enough to be considered a recreational fishery.

Add to this the wide-open access (most on public land), the beauty of the surroundings, and the lack of other similar waters available to the surrounding community, and you have a quality wild trout stream (at least in the upper reaches) that probably could be stocked in the lower reaches without significant harm. And perhaps it probably should be stocked in the lower reaches by the agency charged with trying to conserve a resource while assuring adequate recreational opportunities to the public.


If we knew the name of the stream, we could have a better discussion about it.

Are there people pushing to end stocking in that section? On a stream section with only a few wild trout, early in the year?

The situation you described is very different than on the streams we've been discussing in this thread. The streams discussed in the OP are all Class A streams.

Young Womans Creek, discussed above, was Class A in most years. It dipped just a bit below Class A after the extreme drought of 1999, and that was when the management was changed.

Posted on: 12/24 10:18


Re: C&R - Extended Trout Season
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I thought we were discussing hypothetical streams? In any event, I think the things you bring up are factors in the process of deciding if and when and where and how much supplemental stocking on streams with wild trout reproduction is sensible. PFBC manages this and I think they do well. They aren't going to satisfy the majority at PAFF because we represent a small amount of the total trout anglers. I do think we get more attention to our interests than the other anglers, and that is OK since we are on the side of conserving the NATURAL resource and our preferences are less costly to uphold.

Posted on: 12/24 10:29
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Re: C&R - Extended Trout Season

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2011/5/26 10:12
From Dauphin PA
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Jack,

When I started fishing, my dad told me to bring home all the fish I could. He loved eating fish. Or so he said. My first season, I put around 190 trout in our chest freezer.....he ate 2. After that, I never kept one. I'd catch and relocate to areas that got little pressure. I'm thinking the last fish I kept might have been a 28" walleye back in 1988. He did eat that one.

As for your fictional stream, I see nothing wrong with stocking the lower section that gets heavily utilized. If you are trying to see who'd be worried about the stockers displacing the wild fish, put me on the 'not concerned' list. I would change regulations in the wild section to c&r or decrease the creek limit.

Posted on: 12/24 10:51
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